For me, GR is very much about the origins of the Cold War - the psycho-sexual horror/thrills of living in the shadow of the rocket.
What I loved about Pynchon's earliest three is his ability to send one's brain ricocheting like a pinball from disconnected idea to idea, leaving a trail of unimagined connections - sometimes accomplishing this within the confines of a single sentence. It made the lack of fleshed-out characters besides the point. His latter books lack this, for the most part, and the characters remain relatively fleshless. M&D is the oddball in his work - the only one that contains full characters, and though that mid-sentence ricocheting is also largely absent, he makes some awesome connections. It's the sole standout from his later works, and that's why it's the only one to establish a firm footing at the top of the list.
ATD, the only "big" novel not to make it to the top half of most lists suffered from lack of idea-ricochet (sorry for the shorthand), flat characters, and, for me, the lack of a protagonist, the only book (save maybe Vineland - though Zoyd or Prairie might qualify)where he really lacked one. I need a protagonist-guide to latch onto to help me through his books.
Laura
-----Original Message-----
From: Kai Frederik Lorentzen
Sent: Jul 23, 2015 5:04 AM
To: Robert Mahnke , David Morris , P-list
Subject: Re: A Ranking of Pynchon's Novels
> That sense of contingency, that sense that things could have
been different, speaks to me, and I find it missing in GR ... <
There you speak from an American perspective. For me, as a German
person, "Gravity's Rainbow" has this sense of contingency because
it asks why we did become Nazi Germany in the 1930s and what,
actually and virtually, happened to Germany during the 1940s. In
this regard the only novel that can compete with "Gravity's
Rainbow" is "Doktor Faustus" by Thomas Mann, which was written in
LA too. Paradoxically, the fact that Pynchon knew relatively
little about Germany enabled him to evoke something crucial; and
certain zeitgeist circumstances, like Acid or the war in Vietnam,
helped him to create a picture of Nazi Germany that in many
aspects shows more of the actual reality than the moralist tales
of writers like Böll and Grass; referring to the Holocaust only
indirectly is part of this writing strategy. I know, "Pynchon
deserves to be honored as an American patriot" (Naumann), but I
read him from my German perspective, too. The few true works of
"Weltliteratur" (Goethe), and "Gravity's Rainbow" certainly
belongs to this exquisite canon, deserve more than just one and
the same reading. And then "Gravity's Rainbow" is 760 pages not
flash prose but poetry ...
In the cases of both, "Mason & Dixon" and "Against the Day,"
I feel the idea to be much better than the result. I guess the
fact that these books were long, actually too long in the pipeline
plays an important role here. Like Walter Benjamin had it: "Das
Werk ist die Totenmaske der Konzeption." The (finished) work of
art is the death mask of conception. The letters are there on the
page, but the artistic thrill is gone ...
"Bleeding Edge," where Pynchon - focusing on digitalization and
terrorism - returns to the GR question of technology and control,
and "Vineland" show Pynchon II in full bloom, an author who, while
having a family of his own relatively late in life, discovers the
loyalties and disloyalties of blood ... I also think that these
two are the funniest works of Pynchon.
On 23.07.2015 03:39, Robert Mahnke wrote:
David said, "the fact
that not everyone agrees that GR is Pynchon's masterpiece make
some of wonder what's wrong with those that don't. We could
start flame wars about these differences. That might be
illuminating, and fun..."
Since I was one of the (few) people who didn't rank GR
first, let me try to shed some light, but not heat. The most
recent time I re-read GR, I was as impressed as ever with it
intellectually, but it didn't seem as human as M&D. Maybe
a central question of M&D is, Why did we end up with this
country instead of another? That's question in many of
Pynchon's novels (AtD (this world instead of another) and both
Inherent Vice and Vineland (this California instead of
another). That sense of contingency, that sense that things
could have been different, speaks to me, and I find it missing
in GR (and V and TCoL49 before it), where there is such a
strong sense of predetermination, of the discovery of a hidden
order and conspiracy, whether in the pattern of the V-2s
falling on London or the printed-circuit-like layout of San
Narciso. I'm presenting this as a dichotomy, but of course
something of that sense of another country is in the earlier
books, for example in a great passage just before the end of
TCoL49 which I can't find online just now. Still, from this
perspective you can be impressed by the intellectual
pyrotechnics of GR (it is second on my list, after all), and
yet still think of it as a not-yet-matured work relative to
M&D. If Pynchon had written M&D in the 70s and GR two
decades later, might their relative statures in everyone's
eyes be the reverse?
Those are just a few thoughts tonight. I reserve the right
to change my mind completely tomorrow.
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 4:58 PM, David
Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
wrote:
Those that
have read all of Pynchon's novels are familiar with each
ones qualities and differences. Thus there is a common
unspoken understanding of the overall picture. But the fact
that not everyone agrees that GR is Pynchon's masterpiece
make some of wonder what's wrong with those that don't. We
could start flame wars about these differences. That might
be illuminating, and fun...
David Morris
On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Conor McDade <fpsconor at gmail.com>
wrote:
I am only a youth, so I apologize for
my naivete, but what is the point of these lists
without providing any insight as to why you listed
them in such order? Is it simply to see how people's
tastes vary?
On Wed, Jul
22, 2015 at 3:29 PM, Chris v <traditionalgb at gmail.com>
wrote:
1. AtD
2. M&D
3. GR
4. VL
5. IV
6. CoL49
7. V.
8. SL
9. BE (haven't read yet)
On
Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 6:19 PM, Mark Kohut
<mark.kohut at gmail.com>
wrote:
Why doesn't Ms. Jackson (and
Thomas) make that happen, you
think? Why wasn't there a 50th
Anniversary edition Of V? seems
about every modern " classic" was
so " honored" Think Pynchon does
not believe in such anniversary
editions?
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 22, 2015, at 3:51 AM,
James Robertson <james at themutedposthorn.com>
wrote:
I sure wish
someone would record an
audiobook of V, and
Vineland. That new George
Guidall version of GR is
marvellous.
On Wed, 22 Jul
2015 at 8:48 pm jochen
stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com>
wrote:
2nd that!
2015-07-22
9:55 GMT+02:00
Heikki R <situations.journeys.comedy at gmail.com>:
1.
Gravity's
Rainbow
2. V.
3. Mason
& Dixon
4. The
Crying of Lot
49
5.
Vineland
6.
Against the
Day
7.
Inherent Vice
8.
Bleeding Edge
In fact, on a
couple of
occasions, the
contestants were
shoulder-to-shoulder.
But I decided to
avoid ties
(perhaps for
tactical
reasons).
Heikki
On
Wed, Jul 22,
2015 at 7:02
AM, David
Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
Eaux
Contraire!
Inclusion
is de facto
non-flame.
Love is the
answer.
David
Morris
On Tuesday,
July 21, 2015,
Dave Monroe
<against.the.dave at gmail.com>
wrote:
...
speaking of
flame wars ...
On Tue, Jul
21, 2015 at
11:04 PM,
David Morris
<fqmorris at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Elected
Officials are
all we got in
this
semi-democracy.
Love it or
Leave
> it.
>
> We need
to embrace
democracy,
with all its
warts. We are
extremely
lucky to
> be living
in a place
where we would
want to
discuss this
abstraction.
>
> David
Morris
>
>
> On
Tuesday, July
21, 2015, Dave
Monroe <against.the.dave at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
Americans will
vote for
almost
anything
except elected
officials.
>>
>> On
Tue, Jul 21,
2015 at 9:33
PM, David
Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
Voting is so
American
Idol! I want
my choice to
win!
>> >
Face facts:
Votes aren't
gunna be
backed up by
essays.
>> >
David Morris
>> >
>> >
>> >
On Tuesday,
July 21, 2015,
John Bailey
<sundayjb at gmail.com>
wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> No,
it just means
that
mathematical
averages
cannot capture
the
>>
>>
delightful
diversity of
our responses!
Collating the
different
lists
>>
>> into
one loses
something the
way that a
plot summary
of a P novel
will
>>
>> never
suffice.
>>
>>
>>
>> On
Wed, Jul 22,
2015 at 12:10
PM, David
Ewers <dsewers at comcast.net>
>>
>>
wrote:
>>
>> >
I feel so
redundant!
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
On Jul 21,
2015, at 6:53
PM Jolly good
day we are
having, John
Bailey
>>
>> >
wrote:
>>
>> >
>>
>>
>> The
order seems to
remain the
same.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On
Wed, Jul 22,
2015 at 11:55
AM, David
Ewers <dsewers at comcast.net>
>>
>>
>>
wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
Me too!
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
1. V.
>>
>>
>>>
2. Gravity's
Rainbow
>>
>>
>>>
3. Mason &
Dixon
>>
>>
>>>
4/5. Against
the Day
>>
>>
>>>
4/5. Crying of
Lot 49
>>
>>
>>>
6. Vineland
>>
>>
>>>
7. Inherent
Vice
>>
>>
>>>
8. Bleeding
Edge
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
On Jul 21,
2015, at 6:22
PM Jolly good
day we are
having, Mark
>>
>>
>>>
Thibodeau
>>
>>
>>>
wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> I
love the
diversity of
opinions, too,
but I'm kind
of surprised
at
>>
>>
>>>
how bad
>>
>>
>>>
V. is faring!
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
MT/J
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
On Tue, Jul
21, 2015 at
9:08 PM, Ian
Livingston
>>
>>
>>>
<igrlivingston at gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>>
wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>>>
Love the
diversity of
rankings in
rating one
great author.
Rather
>>
>>
>>>>
like six
>>
>>
>>>>
blind men
describing an
elephant. We
each have our
opinions and
>>
>>
>>>>
our
>>
>>
>>>>
reasons
>>
>>
>>>>
for them. I
love GR, I
truly do, and
it may be the
greater work
>>
>>
>>>>
for
>>
>>
>>>>
all it
>>
>>
>>>>
did to shape
postmodernism,
but:
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>>>
1. M&D
>>
>>
>>>>
2. GR
>>
>>
>>>>
3. AtD
>>
>>
>>>>
4. V. / COL
49 (tie)
>>
>>
>>>>
5. Vineland
>>
>>
>>>>
6. BE
>>
>>
>>>>
7. IV
>>
>>
>>>>
8. Slow
Learner
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>>>
On Tue, Jul
21, 2015 at
5:48 PM, glenn
fuller
>>
>>
>>>>
<glennfuller at sbcglobal.net>
>>
>>
>>>>
wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>
>>>>>
G.R.
>>
>>
>>>>>
A.t.D.
>>
>>
>>>>>
T.C.O.L.49
>>
>>
>>>>>
Vineland
>>
>>
>>>>>
M&D
>>
>>
>>>>>
I.V.
>>
>>
>>>>>
B.E.
>>
>>
>>>>>
V
>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>> >
>>
>> -
>>
>>
Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
-
Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l