A Ranking of Pynchon's Novels
Mark Kohut
mark.kohut at gmail.com
Thu Jul 23 15:08:10 CDT 2015
This is, for me, a wonderful characterization of Why Pynchon except, as I repeat boringly, the idea-ricocheting in Against the Day may be the widest, deepest and longest.
Sent from my iPad
> On Jul 23, 2015, at 2:08 PM, <kelber at mindspring.com> <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> For me, GR is very much about the origins of the Cold War - the psycho-sexual horror/thrills of living in the shadow of the rocket.
>
> What I loved about Pynchon's earliest three is his ability to send one's brain ricocheting like a pinball from disconnected idea to idea, leaving a trail of unimagined connections - sometimes accomplishing this within the confines of a single sentence. It made the lack of fleshed-out characters besides the point. His latter books lack this, for the most part, and the characters remain relatively fleshless. M&D is the oddball in his work - the only one that contains full characters, and though that mid-sentence ricocheting is also largely absent, he makes some awesome connections. It's the sole standout from his later works, and that's why it's the only one to establish a firm footing at the top of the list.
>
> ATD, the only "big" novel not to make it to the top half of most lists suffered from lack of idea-ricochet (sorry for the shorthand), flat characters, and, for me, the lack of a protagonist, the only book (save maybe Vineland - though Zoyd or Prairie might qualify)where he really lacked one. I need a protagonist-guide to latch onto to help me through his books.
>
> Laura
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Kai Frederik Lorentzen
>
> Sent: Jul 23, 2015 5:04 AM
>
> To: Robert Mahnke , David Morris , P-list
>
> Subject: Re: A Ranking of Pynchon's Novels
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> That sense of contingency, that sense that things could have
> been different, speaks to me, and I find it missing in GR ... <
>
>
>
> There you speak from an American perspective. For me, as a German
> person, "Gravity's Rainbow" has this sense of contingency because
> it asks why we did become Nazi Germany in the 1930s and what,
> actually and virtually, happened to Germany during the 1940s. In
> this regard the only novel that can compete with "Gravity's
> Rainbow" is "Doktor Faustus" by Thomas Mann, which was written in
> LA too. Paradoxically, the fact that Pynchon knew relatively
> little about Germany enabled him to evoke something crucial; and
> certain zeitgeist circumstances, like Acid or the war in Vietnam,
> helped him to create a picture of Nazi Germany that in many
> aspects shows more of the actual reality than the moralist tales
> of writers like Böll and Grass; referring to the Holocaust only
> indirectly is part of this writing strategy. I know, "Pynchon
> deserves to be honored as an American patriot" (Naumann), but I
> read him from my German perspective, too. The few true works of
> "Weltliteratur" (Goethe), and "Gravity's Rainbow" certainly
> belongs to this exquisite canon, deserve more than just one and
> the same reading. And then "Gravity's Rainbow" is 760 pages not
> flash prose but poetry ...
>
>
>
> In the cases of both, "Mason & Dixon" and "Against the Day,"
> I feel the idea to be much better than the result. I guess the
> fact that these books were long, actually too long in the pipeline
> plays an important role here. Like Walter Benjamin had it: "Das
> Werk ist die Totenmaske der Konzeption." The (finished) work of
> art is the death mask of conception. The letters are there on the
> page, but the artistic thrill is gone ...
>
>
>
> "Bleeding Edge," where Pynchon - focusing on digitalization and
> terrorism - returns to the GR question of technology and control,
> and "Vineland" show Pynchon II in full bloom, an author who, while
> having a family of his own relatively late in life, discovers the
> loyalties and disloyalties of blood ... I also think that these
> two are the funniest works of Pynchon.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 23.07.2015 03:39, Robert Mahnke wrote:
>
>
>
> David said, "the fact
> that not everyone agrees that GR is Pynchon's masterpiece make
> some of wonder what's wrong with those that don't. We could
> start flame wars about these differences. That might be
> illuminating, and fun..."
>
>
>
> Since I was one of the (few) people who didn't rank GR
> first, let me try to shed some light, but not heat. The most
> recent time I re-read GR, I was as impressed as ever with it
> intellectually, but it didn't seem as human as M&D. Maybe
> a central question of M&D is, Why did we end up with this
> country instead of another? That's question in many of
> Pynchon's novels (AtD (this world instead of another) and both
> Inherent Vice and Vineland (this California instead of
> another). That sense of contingency, that sense that things
> could have been different, speaks to me, and I find it missing
> in GR (and V and TCoL49 before it), where there is such a
> strong sense of predetermination, of the discovery of a hidden
> order and conspiracy, whether in the pattern of the V-2s
> falling on London or the printed-circuit-like layout of San
> Narciso. I'm presenting this as a dichotomy, but of course
> something of that sense of another country is in the earlier
> books, for example in a great passage just before the end of
> TCoL49 which I can't find online just now. Still, from this
> perspective you can be impressed by the intellectual
> pyrotechnics of GR (it is second on my list, after all), and
> yet still think of it as a not-yet-matured work relative to
> M&D. If Pynchon had written M&D in the 70s and GR two
> decades later, might their relative statures in everyone's
> eyes be the reverse?
>
>
>
> Those are just a few thoughts tonight. I reserve the right
> to change my mind completely tomorrow.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 4:58 PM, David
> Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Those that
> have read all of Pynchon's novels are familiar with each
> ones qualities and differences. Thus there is a common
> unspoken understanding of the overall picture. But the fact
> that not everyone agrees that GR is Pynchon's masterpiece
> make some of wonder what's wrong with those that don't. We
> could start flame wars about these differences. That might
> be illuminating, and fun...
>
>
>
> David Morris
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Conor McDade <fpsconor at gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> I am only a youth, so I apologize for
> my naivete, but what is the point of these lists
> without providing any insight as to why you listed
> them in such order? Is it simply to see how people's
> tastes vary?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul
> 22, 2015 at 3:29 PM, Chris v <traditionalgb at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> 1. AtD
> 2. M&D
> 3. GR
> 4. VL
> 5. IV
> 6. CoL49
> 7. V.
> 8. SL
> 9. BE (haven't read yet)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On
> Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 6:19 PM, Mark Kohut
> <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Why doesn't Ms. Jackson (and
> Thomas) make that happen, you
> think? Why wasn't there a 50th
> Anniversary edition Of V? seems
> about every modern " classic" was
> so " honored" Think Pynchon does
> not believe in such anniversary
> editions?
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 22, 2015, at 3:51 AM,
> James Robertson <james at themutedposthorn.com>
>
>
>
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I sure wish
> someone would record an
> audiobook of V, and
> Vineland. That new George
> Guidall version of GR is
> marvellous.
>
>
> On Wed, 22 Jul
> 2015 at 8:48 pm jochen
> stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> 2nd that!
>
>
> 2015-07-22
> 9:55 GMT+02:00
> Heikki R <situations.journeys.comedy at gmail.com>:
>
>
>
>
>
> 1.
> Gravity's
> Rainbow
> 2. V.
> 3. Mason
> & Dixon
> 4. The
> Crying of Lot
> 49
> 5.
> Vineland
> 6.
> Against the
> Day
> 7.
> Inherent Vice
> 8.
> Bleeding Edge
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> In fact, on a
> couple of
> occasions, the
> contestants were
> shoulder-to-shoulder.
>
>
>
>
> But I decided to
> avoid ties
> (perhaps for
> tactical
> reasons).
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Heikki
>
>
>
>
> On
> Wed, Jul 22,
> 2015 at 7:02
> AM, David
> Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Eaux
> Contraire!
> Inclusion
> is de facto
> non-flame.
> Love is the
> answer.
>
>
>
>
> David
> Morris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday,
> July 21, 2015,
> Dave Monroe
> <against.the.dave at gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> ...
> speaking of
> flame wars ...
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul
> 21, 2015 at
> 11:04 PM,
> David Morris
> <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
> wrote:
>
>> Elected
> Officials are
> all we got in
> this
> semi-democracy.
> Love it or
> Leave
>
>> it.
>
>
>> We need
> to embrace
> democracy,
> with all its
> warts. We are
> extremely
> lucky to
>
>> be living
> in a place
> where we would
> want to
> discuss this
> abstraction.
>
>
>> David
> Morris
>
>
>
>> On
> Tuesday, July
> 21, 2015, Dave
> Monroe <against.the.dave at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Americans will
> vote for
> almost
> anything
> except elected
> officials.
>
>
>>> On
> Tue, Jul 21,
> 2015 at 9:33
> PM, David
> Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Voting is so
> American
> Idol! I want
> my choice to
> win!
>
> Face facts:
> Votes aren't
> gunna be
> backed up by
> essays.
>
> David Morris
>
>
>
> On Tuesday,
> July 21, 2015,
> John Bailey
> <sundayjb at gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
> wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>> No,
> it just means
> that
> mathematical
> averages
> cannot capture
> the
>
> delightful
> diversity of
> our responses!
> Collating the
> different
> lists
>
>>>
>>> into
> one loses
> something the
> way that a
> plot summary
> of a P novel
> will
>
>>>
>>> never
> suffice.
>
>
>>>
>>> On
> Wed, Jul 22,
> 2015 at 12:10
> PM, David
> Ewers <dsewers at comcast.net>
>
> wrote:
>
>>>
> I feel so
> redundant!
>
>>>
>
>>>
> On Jul 21,
> 2015, at 6:53
> PM Jolly good
> day we are
> having, John
> Bailey
>
>>>
> wrote:
>
>>>
>
>>>
>>>
>>> The
> order seems to
> remain the
> same.
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>> On
> Wed, Jul 22,
> 2015 at 11:55
> AM, David
> Ewers <dsewers at comcast.net>
>
> wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
> Me too!
>
>>>
>>>
>
>>>
>>>
> 1. V.
>
>>>
>>>
> 2. Gravity's
> Rainbow
>
>>>
>>>
> 3. Mason &
> Dixon
>
>>>
>>>
> 4/5. Against
> the Day
>
>>>
>>>
> 4/5. Crying of
> Lot 49
>
>>>
>>>
> 6. Vineland
>
>>>
>>>
> 7. Inherent
> Vice
>
>>>
>>>
> 8. Bleeding
> Edge
>
>>>
>>>
>
>>>
>>>
> On Jul 21,
> 2015, at 6:22
> PM Jolly good
> day we are
> having, Mark
>
>>>
>>>
> Thibodeau
>
>>>
>>>
> wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I
> love the
> diversity of
> opinions, too,
> but I'm kind
> of surprised
> at
>
>>>
>>>
> how bad
>
>>>
>>>
> V. is faring!
>
>>>
>>>
>
>>>
>>>
> MT/J
>
>>>
>>>
>
>>>
>>>
> On Tue, Jul
> 21, 2015 at
> 9:08 PM, Ian
> Livingston
>
>>>
>>>
> <igrlivingston at gmail.com>
>
>>>
>>>
> wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>
>>>
>>>
> Love the
> diversity of
> rankings in
> rating one
> great author.
> Rather
>
>>>
>>>
> like six
>
>>>
>>>
> blind men
> describing an
> elephant. We
> each have our
> opinions and
>
>>>
>>>
> our
>
>>>
>>>
> reasons
>
>>>
>>>
> for them. I
> love GR, I
> truly do, and
> it may be the
> greater work
>
>>>
>>>
> for
>
>>>
>>>
> all it
>
>>>
>>>
> did to shape
> postmodernism,
> but:
>
>>>
>>>
>
>>>
>>>
> 1. M&D
>
>>>
>>>
> 2. GR
>
>>>
>>>
> 3. AtD
>
>>>
>>>
> 4. V. / COL
> 49 (tie)
>
>>>
>>>
> 5. Vineland
>
>>>
>>>
> 6. BE
>
>>>
>>>
> 7. IV
>
>>>
>>>
> 8. Slow
> Learner
>
>>>
>>>
>
>>>
>>>
> On Tue, Jul
> 21, 2015 at
> 5:48 PM, glenn
> fuller
>
>>>
>>>
> <glennfuller at sbcglobal.net>
>
>>>
>>>
> wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>
>>>
>>>
>
>>>
>>>
> G.R.
>
>>>
>>>
> A.t.D.
>
>>>
>>>
> T.C.O.L.49
>
>>>
>>>
> Vineland
>
>>>
>>>
> M&D
>
>>>
>>>
> I.V.
>
>>>
>>>
> B.E.
>
>>>
>>>
> V
>
>>>
>>>
>
>>>
>>>
>
>>>
>>>
>
>>>
>>>
>
>>>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>>> -
>
>
>
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> -
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