Brilliantly, sadly observed

Fri Nov 27 15:01:16 CST 2015

Read Atlantic's article "What ISIS Wants."  The key takeaway is that ISIS
needs expanding territory in order to not over milk limited $$ of a finite
turf.  ISIS needs nonetheless, but w/o expanded turf, it will crumble from
within.  It will be overthrown from within.

David Morris

On Friday, November 27, 2015, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think, in the simplest terms,  what  the Middle East wants is for
> the West to just buy oil and otherwise mind its own business.  The
> West can't do that. There's that persistent and to them quite sinister
> thing from our Christian past, that of Conversion. And by the sword if
> necessary.  Make everyone think and behave like the West. I guess the
> only possible next move is the good old tried and true Peace Process.
> It might only slow things down course.  Peace yesterday, peace
> tomorrow. Only the peace process today.
>
> P
>
> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Ian Livingston
> <igrlivingston at gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >> only an honest definition of the similarities and differences in what
> the
> >> US and its allies are doing and have done and what the Muslim groups are
> >> doing will begin the process of understanding.
> >
> > For the most part, I'm inclined to agree with Joseph, here, but this last
> > phrase from Ish really hits the mark, imo. No country in the West has
> > offered a full and coherent statement of their intentions in the Middle
> > East, and I have encountered none published here of what anti-Western
> > combatants and supporters earnestly desire as an outcome of their efforts
> > and sacrifices. The absence of understanding encourages resistance and
> > resistance, it seems inevitably, increases force. Mayhem ensues. It's not
> > even an effective means of population reduction. Understanding and
> knowledge
> > of the similarities the other shares with the self can unravel conflict.
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 7:01 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Right. So, we can't use the word "terrorism" to describe the US atomic
> >> bombs dropped on Japan, any more than the term should be applied to the
> >> bombings of Iraq, Vietnam....the bombing of Doctors Without Boarders, of
> >> schools and so on by the US. Same goes for the US use of torture & Co.
> >>
> >> Too much distinction is lost, though, of course, the rhetorical use is
> >> effective, in a rant, say, or in a headline or propaganda film on
> Youtube.
> >>
> >> Those who call the US the greatest terrorist nation in the world may
> hope
> >> to turn the phrase, one the US and its allies use to demonize other
> nations
> >> and groups, and score a point, but only an honest definition of the
> >> similarities and differences in what the US and its allies are doing and
> >> have done and what the Muslim groups are doing will begin the process of
> >> understanding.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Yeah, the U.S. Record is atrocious. Looking up bombing under the Geneva
> >>> conventions, one quickly learns what one knew: atomic bombs that ended
> WW2
> >>> were ...war crimes.
> >>>
> >>> No official international treaties cover strategic bombing. Principles
> of
> >>> necessity and proportionality and attempts to warn citizens are
> governing
> >>> principles.
> >>>
> >>> It's all a shithole of death.
> >>>
> >>> But courses have been changed. Some principles have been followed.
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPad
> >>>
> >>> > On Nov 27, 2015, at 12:12 AM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > So what exactly does the word terrorism mean? Give me a definition.
> >>> >
> >>> > Also what is a  “rant”.
> >>> >
> >>> > When you talk about what “we “ have been able to do since ww2, who
> are
> >>> > you talking  about. Do the politicians and CIA and Pentagon consult
> with
> >>> > you. At any rate I find the international record of the US
> government after
> >>> > ww2 to be mostly horrible.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >> On Nov 26, 2015, at 8:31 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> The diversity of approaches  can't be ignored, and labeling one, the
> >>> >> bombing and droning by America, for example, as "terrorism", while
> an
> >>> >> effective rhetorical strategy to counter the American propaganda
> that seeks
> >>> >> to paste this label on its current targets, is counterproductive.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> War, not only destroys communities, wastes resources, and so on, it
> >>> >> compounds the difficulties that are naturally and inherently
> present in
> >>> >> communication across cultures, as fundamental differences about
> human
> >>> >> communities become ideologically rigid by the exercise of power and
> the use
> >>> >> of violence and intimidation (terror).
> >>> >>
> >>> >> That said, the end of violence, while a necessary step, one that
> will
> >>> >> stop making matters worse, will also bring more complexity to the
> problem,
> >>> >> and even more approaches to solving it. The peace process will
> admit more
> >>> >> voices, more groups, more diversity.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Human rights, justice, independence, self-determination, security,
> >>> >> education, freedom....these are not going to flourish once the west
> ceases
> >>> >> the bombing and droning. To achieve these, is, of course,  much more
> >>> >> difficult than waging wars.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Fortunately, we have some decent models. While never perfect, we can
> >>> >> look to what we have been able to do, since WWII, and work for a
> lasting
> >>> >> peace in this troubled region of the world. We will need Russia and
> China
> >>> >> and others to get it done. And, while  I doubt it will happen,
> that's what
> >>> >> it will take. To dismiss the West and the whites, and smear them
> all with
> >>> >> trumpings makes for good headlines in a tabloid, rants.....nothing
> more....
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Aside from the ranting, there are advantages to the privileged who
> can
> >>> >> articulate their grievances and capitalize on the plight of the
> poor and
> >>> >> powerless, who are, of course, disproportionately, people of color
> in the
> >>> >> US,  but we've seen this movie before. Pynchon wrote a novel about
> it.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 7:37 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>>
> >>> >> wrote:
> >>> >> So send in ground troops? That won't work. More importantly, tt
> won't
> >>> >> prevent the thing you most want to stop, the killing of citizens,
> >>> >> non-combatants. War is not the answer. Peace is the answer. Can we
> make
> >>> >> peace with all these parties and factions? No. So there is no way
> out of
> >>> >> this. It will never end. We have to live with it best we can. Stop
> the
> >>> >> bombing and droning, stop the funding and arms sales, stop tearing
> down
> >>> >> governments, propping puppets. This won't wash the West of blood or
> absolve
> >>> >> it from the bloody civil and regional wars that will continue,
> worsen
> >>> >> perhaps, but art least the west can get on with the business of
> money.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 11:36 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net
> <javascript:;>>
> >>> >> wrote:
> >>> >> I never said Al Qaeda or BinLaden were responding in kind. I said
> Isis
> >>> >> was. But I think it is you who fails to understand moral
> equivalence. You
> >>> >> seem to think that The US can murder hundreds of thousands in a
> nation that
> >>> >> neither attacked nor threatened them  and expect to be safe
> themselves. What
> >>> >> about the wealthy 'freedom fighters' of recent US history and their
> idiotic
> >>> >> reasons for starting wars. What about the mass killing in Gaza?
> What about
> >>> >> our support for Mubarak, the Shah, the Saudis. What about the
> estimated
> >>> >> million children who starved due to our blockade of Iraq. What
> about our
> >>> >> torture? Why isn’t the same kind of outrage over Paris directed at
> the US
> >>> >> killing of Doctors and patients in the MSF hospital? Isn’t it that
> we don’t
> >>> >> want to look at our own crimes and stupidity and violence, or to
> question
> >>> >> the nasty behavior of the US military?
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Fuck america’s ignorant and murderous self-righteousness.  And the
> >>> >> same for the French leader who started bombing in Libya and the ISIS
> >>> >> territories. He risked his civilian citizens when he rained bombs
> on cities
> >>> >> which have more non-combatant civilians than Isis fighters. What he
> did was
> >>> >> just as bad as what they did.
> >>> >>  The only way to fight a group like this without collective
> punishment
> >>> >> is on the ground, following the Geneva accord to avoid civilian
> casualties,
> >>> >> and followed by the kind of economic aid given to Japan and
> Germany. That is
> >>> >> very costly, but the bombing is pure terrorism and  begets more of
> the same.
> >>> >> Both Bush and Obama had the stated strategy , on which billions was
> spent,
> >>> >> of training the Iraqi army to handle internal threats. Before that
> it was
> >>> >> massive bombing and a large ground war. None of these strategies
> has brought
> >>> >> the stated goals. Neither will this new bombing campaign.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 9:14 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> " They" claimed?---not any I believed ...and ISIS out of Al---Qaeda
> >>> >>> would NOT have happened if we had not bombed? ( not that I believe
> we should
> >>> >>> have bombed Iraq, but I say nothing would have stopped ISIS from
> happening.
> >>> >>> And the most major difficulty is stopping/destroying a
> transnational group
> >>> >>> such as Al--Qaeda formed by a wealthy 'freedom fighter' who fought
> the
> >>> >>> Russians whose ideology held Westernism---your life and mine---as
> an evil in
> >>> >>> itself....and who " responded in kind" to our having military
> bases in Saudi
> >>> >>> Arabia, an ally, by knocking down the World Trade Center and
> killing 3000. “
> >>> >>
> >>> >> He claimed also to be responding to Israel’s treatment of
> >>> >> Palestinians. Many westerners, avid for war, describe Islam in the
> same
> >>> >> way,”an evil in itself". All militaristic cultures fill themselves
> with the
> >>> >> same lies in order to control land, gain power and enrich
> themselves at
> >>> >> others expense.
> >>> >>> IN kind" shows you don't get " moral equivalence" in any way.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 8:23 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> I think you are dreaming when it comes to Obama and global
> warming.
> >>> >>>> Under enormous political pressure he finally canned the tar sands
> pipeline,
> >>> >>>> but has dramatically increased fracking and continued gulf oil
> operations
> >>> >>>> despite the spill and also opened the arctic. He talks one way
> and acts
> >>> >>>> another in virtually every issue.
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> The problem with bombing is it is wildly indiscriminate and kills
> >>> >>>> many civilians.  US bombs in Syria have killed many more
> civilians than were
> >>> >>>> killed in all Isis attacks on  westerners. We are also bombing
> and doing
> >>> >>>> drone missile strikes in Yemen, Afghanistan, Africa etc.
> >>> >>>> If you want to make war you need to do all that is possible to
> avoid
> >>> >>>> civilian deaths or you are just terrorists with uniforms and jets.
> >>> >>>> Collective punishment is evil.
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> The sad truth is that the US is still the major planetary
> terrorist
> >>> >>>> of the last 2 decades and ISIS is simply responding  in kind. You
> seem to
> >>> >>>> approve of the very tactics that led to these attacks.
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> The Syrian rebels you speak of have absorbed into ISIS or
> decimated
> >>> >>>> to virtual non-existence.
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> You want to imagine that this utterly horrible policy of solving
> all
> >>> >>>> conflicts with bombs will magically work this time? They claimed
> it had
> >>> >>>> worked in Iraq right up until ISIS proved them to be liars and
> idiots.
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>>> that does not destabilize us.
> >>> >>>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 7:29 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>>
> >>> >>>>> wrote:
> >>> >>>>> paris, beirut and the Russian plane show they are a global
> threat,
> >>> >>>>> imho. I do not know what else
> >>> >>>>> to do but soldiers on the ground means more deaths and no
> >>> >>>>> resolution
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> Obama has clearly spoken against Us Military dominance. I do not
> >>> >>>>> know
> >>> >>>>> how self-governance will take hold,
> >>> >>>>> unless the Syrian rebels take down Assad and make it happen.
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> The move off oil--and to other sources of energy---has been
> >>> >>>>> happening
> >>> >>>>> and accelerated by Obama.
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 6:47 PM, Joseph Tracy <
> brook7 at sover.net <javascript:;>>
> >>> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>> >>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 4:40 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>>
> >>> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>> >>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>> Is ISIS an existential global threat, in your mind. And what is
> >>> >>>>>>> to be
> >>> >>>>>>> done if it is?
> >>> >>>>>> ISIS has clearly reached its limits as a regional force and
> >>> >>>>>> millions are fleeing the area. They are refugees from ISIS,
> from drought,
> >>> >>>>>> from bombs,  from the Syrian army and from the Iraqi army. So
> the fact that
> >>> >>>>>> ISIS is ruling by terror and ideological solidarity over such an
> >>> >>>>>> inhospitable and deadly region is hardly an existential threat.
> >>> >>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>> What is to be done? Not bombs, not drones, not coalitions with
> the
> >>> >>>>>> dictatorial monarchy that bred Isis and Al Qaeda. Not regime
> change with a
> >>> >>>>>> new set of Generals and dickhead dictators. These have been
> tried again and
> >>> >>>>>> again.  Our policies in  Vietnam, Afghanistan, Libya and Iraq
> have failed
> >>> >>>>>> miserably, and yet more of that is what is proposed by Obama
> and the
> >>> >>>>>> Republicans. Part of the problem here is that some things can’t
> be fixed any
> >>> >>>>>> more than people can be brought back from the dead.
> >>> >>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>> If the nations of the earth truly want to disarm ISIS and bring
> >>> >>>>>> justice to the region it would require ground troops with a
> high commitment
> >>> >>>>>> to the Geneva conventions and a willingness to address the
> original
> >>> >>>>>> injustices to regional Sunni Arabs.  Clearly the civil war
> between Shia and
> >>> >>>>>> Sunni  Iraqis did not resolve the problems in Iraq  following
> the massive
> >>> >>>>>> destruction of the war. Despite plenty of weapons, training and
> money the
> >>> >>>>>> government of Iraq could not stop the seizure of control by the
> ISIS
> >>> >>>>>> fighters.
> >>> >>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>> US policy needs to change dramatically away from global military
> >>> >>>>>> dominance toward creating a working model of a just middle
> class peaceable
> >>> >>>>>> multi-ethnic, tolerant  republic/democracy/ parliamentary
> socialism/whatever
> >>> >>>>>> we choose in a reasonably non-corrupt self governing process.
> We need to
> >>> >>>>>> lead toward renewable energy and local full spectrum green
> economies. Either
> >>> >>>>>> we move toward something like that or we continue on the path
> to globally
> >>> >>>>>> destructive wars for dominance, resource extraction, and an
> ecological death
> >>> >>>>>> spiral.
> >>> >>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 10:57 AM, Joseph Tracy
> >>> >>>>>>>> <brook7 at sover.net <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>> >>>>>>>> Calling people knuckle draggers may have some accuracy and
> offer
> >>> >>>>>>>> some comic release, but are our problems really coming from
> the
> >>> >>>>>>>> semi-literate? Is  the US Military and our campaigns of mass
> obliteration
> >>> >>>>>>>> and drone warfare in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and now Isis
> controlled
> >>> >>>>>>>> regions the product of semi-literacy or even the Republicans?
> The votes and
> >>> >>>>>>>> financing came from both parties, many lawyers, many
> newspeople. My feeling
> >>> >>>>>>>> is that Trump is just like Netanyahu, a shrewd public power
> broker who knows
> >>> >>>>>>>> fear and war are the ultimate political drug, and voices
> openly the
> >>> >>>>>>>> xenopobic hate mongering that produced the blowback.
> >>> >>>>>>>> Many educated people are as addicted to denial and military
> >>> >>>>>>>> violence and the racism of neglect as the more obviously
> ignorant followers
> >>> >>>>>>>> of Trump and Cruz.. The Paris attacks have produced an ugly
> willingness to
> >>> >>>>>>>> keep bombing regardless of how man regional civilians die,
> and that
> >>> >>>>>>>> willingness goes across the political spectrum.
> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 24, 2015, at 8:09 PM, David Kilroy
> >>> >>>>>>>>> <thesaintgodard at gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>> "It's clear now that the Paris attacks enormously energized
> the
> >>> >>>>>>>>> Trumpist movement. He's now speculating openly about
> invading Syria. Trump's
> >>> >>>>>>>>> proposals have gone from overt prejudice to things literally
> taken out of
> >>> >>>>>>>>> late Weimar history — closure of mosques and a national
> Muslim database. The
> >>> >>>>>>>>> rank-and-file have both fed off and stoked this behavior.
> When a lone
> >>> >>>>>>>>> protester started chanting "black lives matter" at a Trump
> rally, Trumpists
> >>> >>>>>>>>> jumped him (he was luckily not badly injured). Trump later
> said, "Maybe he
> >>> >>>>>>>>> should have been roughed up." Hours later he lied about
> witnessing Muslim
> >>> >>>>>>>>> crowds celebrating 9/11, and retweeted nonsense racist
> garbage from a
> >>> >>>>>>>>> literal neo-Nazi."
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> http://theweek.com/articles/590497/donald-trumps-alarming-skid-toward-outright-fascism
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>> After decades of being allowed to stockpile arms with
> >>> >>>>>>>>> increasingly little federal interference, a general
> escalation in the
> >>> >>>>>>>>> violent rhetoric of the right, and shrill sponsorship from
> the NRA,
> >>> >>>>>>>>> semiliterate knuckle-draggers are only too eager to start a
> race /
> >>> >>>>>>>>> "religious" war in the U.S., and the candidates, allowed to
> start their
> >>> >>>>>>>>> noisome campaigns two years in advance of an actual
> election, are only
> >>> >>>>>>>>> egging them on.
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>> I live in a state where black churches were burned, in a city
> >>> >>>>>>>>> with clear color lines.  I'm not afraid of black people.
> I'm afraid of
> >>> >>>>>>>>> shitheads teething for glory.
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 7:37 PM, David Kilroy
> >>> >>>>>>>>> <thesaintgodard at gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>> >>>>>>>>> Apologies for harping on this point.  Know that I do.  But it
> >>> >>>>>>>>> frankly terrifies me.
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 7:17 PM, David Kilroy
> >>> >>>>>>>>> <thesaintgodard at gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>> >>>>>>>>> (shades of Lot 49, too: recall the swastika armbands)
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 7:16 PM, David Kilroy
> >>> >>>>>>>>> <thesaintgodard at gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>> >>>>>>>>> The tech sector's too "What, me worry?" about the problem.
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>> Anonymity in comments threads, Craigslist, 4chan, Reddit et
> al
> >>> >>>>>>>>> permit open promulgation of hate speech.  Most sites, when
> confronted about
> >>> >>>>>>>>> the problem, cite free speech as a concern when the fact is
> they don't want
> >>> >>>>>>>>> to face the added hassle of verifying accounts and making
> people responsible
> >>> >>>>>>>>> for their words.
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>> There's a massive network of these shitheads armed for a race
> >>> >>>>>>>>> riot and no-one seems to want to stop them.
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 5:05 PM, Steven Koteff
> >>> >>>>>>>>> <steviekoteff at gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks a lot for this, Mark. Reading it now, and I agree with
> >>> >>>>>>>>> you. Very smart and sadder for it.
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Mark Kohut
> >>> >>>>>>>>> <mark.kohut at gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>> >>>>>>>>> Charlie Pierce on the Powder Keg that is the United States of
> >>> >>>>>>>>> America
> >>> >>>>>>>>> right now
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a39987/america-race-powderkeg/
> >>> >>>>>>>>> …
> >>> >>>>>>>>> -
> >>> >>>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>> >>>>>>>>> http://davidkilroy.tumblr.com/
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>> >>>>>>>>> http://davidkilroy.tumblr.com/
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>> >>>>>>>>> http://davidkilroy.tumblr.com/
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>> >>>>>>>>> http://davidkilroy.tumblr.com/
> >>> >>>>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>>>> -
> >>> >>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >>> >>>>>>> -
> >>> >>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list
> >>> >>>>>>
> >>> >>>>>> -
> >>> >>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> -
> >>> >>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> >>> >>> -
> >>> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list
> >>> >>
> >>> >> -
> >>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >>> >
> >>> > -
> >>> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> >>> -
> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >>
> >>
> >
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
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