Brilliantly, sadly observed

Fri Nov 27 15:04:27 CST 2015

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

On Friday, November 27, 2015, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:

> Read Atlantic's article "What ISIS Wants."  The key takeaway is that ISIS
> needs expanding territory in order to not over milk limited $$ of a finite
> turf.  ISIS needs nonetheless, but w/o expanded turf, it will crumble from
> within.  It will be overthrown from within.
>
> David Morris
>
> On Friday, November 27, 2015, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mackin.paul at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>
>> I think, in the simplest terms,  what  the Middle East wants is for
>> the West to just buy oil and otherwise mind its own business.  The
>> West can't do that. There's that persistent and to them quite sinister
>> thing from our Christian past, that of Conversion. And by the sword if
>> necessary.  Make everyone think and behave like the West. I guess the
>> only possible next move is the good old tried and true Peace Process.
>> It might only slow things down course.  Peace yesterday, peace
>> tomorrow. Only the peace process today.
>>
>> P
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Ian Livingston
>> <igrlivingston at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> only an honest definition of the similarities and differences in what
>> the
>> >> US and its allies are doing and have done and what the Muslim groups
>> are
>> >> doing will begin the process of understanding.
>> >
>> > For the most part, I'm inclined to agree with Joseph, here, but this
>> last
>> > phrase from Ish really hits the mark, imo. No country in the West has
>> > offered a full and coherent statement of their intentions in the Middle
>> > East, and I have encountered none published here of what anti-Western
>> > combatants and supporters earnestly desire as an outcome of their
>> efforts
>> > and sacrifices. The absence of understanding encourages resistance and
>> > resistance, it seems inevitably, increases force. Mayhem ensues. It's
>> not
>> > even an effective means of population reduction. Understanding and
>> knowledge
>> > of the similarities the other shares with the self can unravel conflict.
>> >
>> > On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 7:01 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Right. So, we can't use the word "terrorism" to describe the US atomic
>> >> bombs dropped on Japan, any more than the term should be applied to the
>> >> bombings of Iraq, Vietnam....the bombing of Doctors Without Boarders,
>> of
>> >> schools and so on by the US. Same goes for the US use of torture & Co.
>> >>
>> >> Too much distinction is lost, though, of course, the rhetorical use is
>> >> effective, in a rant, say, or in a headline or propaganda film on
>> Youtube.
>> >>
>> >> Those who call the US the greatest terrorist nation in the world may
>> hope
>> >> to turn the phrase, one the US and its allies use to demonize other
>> nations
>> >> and groups, and score a point, but only an honest definition of the
>> >> similarities and differences in what the US and its allies are doing
>> and
>> >> have done and what the Muslim groups are doing will begin the process
>> of
>> >> understanding.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Yeah, the U.S. Record is atrocious. Looking up bombing under the
>> Geneva
>> >>> conventions, one quickly learns what one knew: atomic bombs that
>> ended WW2
>> >>> were ...war crimes.
>> >>>
>> >>> No official international treaties cover strategic bombing.
>> Principles of
>> >>> necessity and proportionality and attempts to warn citizens are
>> governing
>> >>> principles.
>> >>>
>> >>> It's all a shithole of death.
>> >>>
>> >>> But courses have been changed. Some principles have been followed.
>> >>>
>> >>> Sent from my iPad
>> >>>
>> >>> > On Nov 27, 2015, at 12:12 AM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>> wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> > So what exactly does the word terrorism mean? Give me a definition.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Also what is a  “rant”.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > When you talk about what “we “ have been able to do since ww2, who
>> are
>> >>> > you talking  about. Do the politicians and CIA and Pentagon consult
>> with
>> >>> > you. At any rate I find the international record of the US
>> government after
>> >>> > ww2 to be mostly horrible.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >> On Nov 26, 2015, at 8:31 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> The diversity of approaches  can't be ignored, and labeling one,
>> the
>> >>> >> bombing and droning by America, for example, as "terrorism", while
>> an
>> >>> >> effective rhetorical strategy to counter the American propaganda
>> that seeks
>> >>> >> to paste this label on its current targets, is counterproductive.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> War, not only destroys communities, wastes resources, and so on, it
>> >>> >> compounds the difficulties that are naturally and inherently
>> present in
>> >>> >> communication across cultures, as fundamental differences about
>> human
>> >>> >> communities become ideologically rigid by the exercise of power
>> and the use
>> >>> >> of violence and intimidation (terror).
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> That said, the end of violence, while a necessary step, one that
>> will
>> >>> >> stop making matters worse, will also bring more complexity to the
>> problem,
>> >>> >> and even more approaches to solving it. The peace process will
>> admit more
>> >>> >> voices, more groups, more diversity.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Human rights, justice, independence, self-determination, security,
>> >>> >> education, freedom....these are not going to flourish once the
>> west ceases
>> >>> >> the bombing and droning. To achieve these, is, of course,  much
>> more
>> >>> >> difficult than waging wars.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Fortunately, we have some decent models. While never perfect, we
>> can
>> >>> >> look to what we have been able to do, since WWII, and work for a
>> lasting
>> >>> >> peace in this troubled region of the world. We will need Russia
>> and China
>> >>> >> and others to get it done. And, while  I doubt it will happen,
>> that's what
>> >>> >> it will take. To dismiss the West and the whites, and smear them
>> all with
>> >>> >> trumpings makes for good headlines in a tabloid, rants.....nothing
>> more....
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Aside from the ranting, there are advantages to the privileged who
>> can
>> >>> >> articulate their grievances and capitalize on the plight of the
>> poor and
>> >>> >> powerless, who are, of course, disproportionately, people of color
>> in the
>> >>> >> US,  but we've seen this movie before. Pynchon wrote a novel about
>> it.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 7:37 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com
>> >
>> >>> >> wrote:
>> >>> >> So send in ground troops? That won't work. More importantly, tt
>> won't
>> >>> >> prevent the thing you most want to stop, the killing of citizens,
>> >>> >> non-combatants. War is not the answer. Peace is the answer. Can we
>> make
>> >>> >> peace with all these parties and factions? No. So there is no way
>> out of
>> >>> >> this. It will never end. We have to live with it best we can. Stop
>> the
>> >>> >> bombing and droning, stop the funding and arms sales, stop tearing
>> down
>> >>> >> governments, propping puppets. This won't wash the West of blood
>> or absolve
>> >>> >> it from the bloody civil and regional wars that will continue,
>> worsen
>> >>> >> perhaps, but art least the west can get on with the business of
>> money.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 11:36 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>> >>> >> wrote:
>> >>> >> I never said Al Qaeda or BinLaden were responding in kind. I said
>> Isis
>> >>> >> was. But I think it is you who fails to understand moral
>> equivalence. You
>> >>> >> seem to think that The US can murder hundreds of thousands in a
>> nation that
>> >>> >> neither attacked nor threatened them  and expect to be safe
>> themselves. What
>> >>> >> about the wealthy 'freedom fighters' of recent US history and
>> their idiotic
>> >>> >> reasons for starting wars. What about the mass killing in Gaza?
>> What about
>> >>> >> our support for Mubarak, the Shah, the Saudis. What about the
>> estimated
>> >>> >> million children who starved due to our blockade of Iraq. What
>> about our
>> >>> >> torture? Why isn’t the same kind of outrage over Paris directed at
>> the US
>> >>> >> killing of Doctors and patients in the MSF hospital? Isn’t it that
>> we don’t
>> >>> >> want to look at our own crimes and stupidity and violence, or to
>> question
>> >>> >> the nasty behavior of the US military?
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Fuck america’s ignorant and murderous self-righteousness.  And the
>> >>> >> same for the French leader who started bombing in Libya and the
>> ISIS
>> >>> >> territories. He risked his civilian citizens when he rained bombs
>> on cities
>> >>> >> which have more non-combatant civilians than Isis fighters. What
>> he did was
>> >>> >> just as bad as what they did.
>> >>> >>  The only way to fight a group like this without collective
>> punishment
>> >>> >> is on the ground, following the Geneva accord to avoid civilian
>> casualties,
>> >>> >> and followed by the kind of economic aid given to Japan and
>> Germany. That is
>> >>> >> very costly, but the bombing is pure terrorism and  begets more of
>> the same.
>> >>> >> Both Bush and Obama had the stated strategy , on which billions
>> was spent,
>> >>> >> of training the Iraqi army to handle internal threats. Before that
>> it was
>> >>> >> massive bombing and a large ground war. None of these strategies
>> has brought
>> >>> >> the stated goals. Neither will this new bombing campaign.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 9:14 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> " They" claimed?---not any I believed ...and ISIS out of
>> Al---Qaeda
>> >>> >>> would NOT have happened if we had not bombed? ( not that I
>> believe we should
>> >>> >>> have bombed Iraq, but I say nothing would have stopped ISIS from
>> happening.
>> >>> >>> And the most major difficulty is stopping/destroying a
>> transnational group
>> >>> >>> such as Al--Qaeda formed by a wealthy 'freedom fighter' who
>> fought the
>> >>> >>> Russians whose ideology held Westernism---your life and mine---as
>> an evil in
>> >>> >>> itself....and who " responded in kind" to our having military
>> bases in Saudi
>> >>> >>> Arabia, an ally, by knocking down the World Trade Center and
>> killing 3000. “
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> He claimed also to be responding to Israel’s treatment of
>> >>> >> Palestinians. Many westerners, avid for war, describe Islam in the
>> same
>> >>> >> way,”an evil in itself". All militaristic cultures fill themselves
>> with the
>> >>> >> same lies in order to control land, gain power and enrich
>> themselves at
>> >>> >> others expense.
>> >>> >>> IN kind" shows you don't get " moral equivalence" in any way.
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 8:23 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>> wrote:
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> I think you are dreaming when it comes to Obama and global
>> warming.
>> >>> >>>> Under enormous political pressure he finally canned the tar
>> sands pipeline,
>> >>> >>>> but has dramatically increased fracking and continued gulf oil
>> operations
>> >>> >>>> despite the spill and also opened the arctic. He talks one way
>> and acts
>> >>> >>>> another in virtually every issue.
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> The problem with bombing is it is wildly indiscriminate and kills
>> >>> >>>> many civilians.  US bombs in Syria have killed many more
>> civilians than were
>> >>> >>>> killed in all Isis attacks on  westerners. We are also bombing
>> and doing
>> >>> >>>> drone missile strikes in Yemen, Afghanistan, Africa etc.
>> >>> >>>> If you want to make war you need to do all that is possible to
>> avoid
>> >>> >>>> civilian deaths or you are just terrorists with uniforms and
>> jets.
>> >>> >>>> Collective punishment is evil.
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> The sad truth is that the US is still the major planetary
>> terrorist
>> >>> >>>> of the last 2 decades and ISIS is simply responding  in kind.
>> You seem to
>> >>> >>>> approve of the very tactics that led to these attacks.
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> The Syrian rebels you speak of have absorbed into ISIS or
>> decimated
>> >>> >>>> to virtual non-existence.
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> You want to imagine that this utterly horrible policy of solving
>> all
>> >>> >>>> conflicts with bombs will magically work this time? They claimed
>> it had
>> >>> >>>> worked in Iraq right up until ISIS proved them to be liars and
>> idiots.
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>>> that does not destabilize us.
>> >>> >>>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 7:29 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >>> >>>>> wrote:
>> >>> >>>>> paris, beirut and the Russian plane show they are a global
>> threat,
>> >>> >>>>> imho. I do not know what else
>> >>> >>>>> to do but soldiers on the ground means more deaths and no
>> >>> >>>>> resolution
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>> Obama has clearly spoken against Us Military dominance. I do not
>> >>> >>>>> know
>> >>> >>>>> how self-governance will take hold,
>> >>> >>>>> unless the Syrian rebels take down Assad and make it happen.
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>> The move off oil--and to other sources of energy---has been
>> >>> >>>>> happening
>> >>> >>>>> and accelerated by Obama.
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 6:47 PM, Joseph Tracy <
>> brook7 at sover.net>
>> >>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 4:40 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com
>> >
>> >>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>> Is ISIS an existential global threat, in your mind. And what
>> is
>> >>> >>>>>>> to be
>> >>> >>>>>>> done if it is?
>> >>> >>>>>> ISIS has clearly reached its limits as a regional force and
>> >>> >>>>>> millions are fleeing the area. They are refugees from ISIS,
>> from drought,
>> >>> >>>>>> from bombs,  from the Syrian army and from the Iraqi army. So
>> the fact that
>> >>> >>>>>> ISIS is ruling by terror and ideological solidarity over such
>> an
>> >>> >>>>>> inhospitable and deadly region is hardly an existential threat.
>> >>> >>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>> What is to be done? Not bombs, not drones, not coalitions with
>> the
>> >>> >>>>>> dictatorial monarchy that bred Isis and Al Qaeda. Not regime
>> change with a
>> >>> >>>>>> new set of Generals and dickhead dictators. These have been
>> tried again and
>> >>> >>>>>> again.  Our policies in  Vietnam, Afghanistan, Libya and Iraq
>> have failed
>> >>> >>>>>> miserably, and yet more of that is what is proposed by Obama
>> and the
>> >>> >>>>>> Republicans. Part of the problem here is that some things
>> can’t be fixed any
>> >>> >>>>>> more than people can be brought back from the dead.
>> >>> >>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>> If the nations of the earth truly want to disarm ISIS and bring
>> >>> >>>>>> justice to the region it would require ground troops with a
>> high commitment
>> >>> >>>>>> to the Geneva conventions and a willingness to address the
>> original
>> >>> >>>>>> injustices to regional Sunni Arabs.  Clearly the civil war
>> between Shia and
>> >>> >>>>>> Sunni  Iraqis did not resolve the problems in Iraq  following
>> the massive
>> >>> >>>>>> destruction of the war. Despite plenty of weapons, training
>> and money the
>> >>> >>>>>> government of Iraq could not stop the seizure of control by
>> the ISIS
>> >>> >>>>>> fighters.
>> >>> >>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>> US policy needs to change dramatically away from global
>> military
>> >>> >>>>>> dominance toward creating a working model of a just middle
>> class peaceable
>> >>> >>>>>> multi-ethnic, tolerant  republic/democracy/ parliamentary
>> socialism/whatever
>> >>> >>>>>> we choose in a reasonably non-corrupt self governing process.
>> We need to
>> >>> >>>>>> lead toward renewable energy and local full spectrum green
>> economies. Either
>> >>> >>>>>> we move toward something like that or we continue on the path
>> to globally
>> >>> >>>>>> destructive wars for dominance, resource extraction, and an
>> ecological death
>> >>> >>>>>> spiral.
>> >>> >>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 10:57 AM, Joseph Tracy
>> >>> >>>>>>>> <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>> >>> >>>>>>>> Calling people knuckle draggers may have some accuracy and
>> offer
>> >>> >>>>>>>> some comic release, but are our problems really coming from
>> the
>> >>> >>>>>>>> semi-literate? Is  the US Military and our campaigns of mass
>> obliteration
>> >>> >>>>>>>> and drone warfare in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and now Isis
>> controlled
>> >>> >>>>>>>> regions the product of semi-literacy or even the
>> Republicans? The votes and
>> >>> >>>>>>>> financing came from both parties, many lawyers, many
>> newspeople. My feeling
>> >>> >>>>>>>> is that Trump is just like Netanyahu, a shrewd public power
>> broker who knows
>> >>> >>>>>>>> fear and war are the ultimate political drug, and voices
>> openly the
>> >>> >>>>>>>> xenopobic hate mongering that produced the blowback.
>> >>> >>>>>>>> Many educated people are as addicted to denial and military
>> >>> >>>>>>>> violence and the racism of neglect as the more obviously
>> ignorant followers
>> >>> >>>>>>>> of Trump and Cruz.. The Paris attacks have produced an ugly
>> willingness to
>> >>> >>>>>>>> keep bombing regardless of how man regional civilians die,
>> and that
>> >>> >>>>>>>> willingness goes across the political spectrum.
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 24, 2015, at 8:09 PM, David Kilroy
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> <thesaintgodard at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> "It's clear now that the Paris attacks enormously energized
>> the
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Trumpist movement. He's now speculating openly about
>> invading Syria. Trump's
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> proposals have gone from overt prejudice to things
>> literally taken out of
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> late Weimar history — closure of mosques and a national
>> Muslim database. The
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> rank-and-file have both fed off and stoked this behavior.
>> When a lone
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> protester started chanting "black lives matter" at a Trump
>> rally, Trumpists
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> jumped him (he was luckily not badly injured). Trump later
>> said, "Maybe he
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> should have been roughed up." Hours later he lied about
>> witnessing Muslim
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> crowds celebrating 9/11, and retweeted nonsense racist
>> garbage from a
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> literal neo-Nazi."
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> http://theweek.com/articles/590497/donald-trumps-alarming-skid-toward-outright-fascism
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> After decades of being allowed to stockpile arms with
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> increasingly little federal interference, a general
>> escalation in the
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> violent rhetoric of the right, and shrill sponsorship from
>> the NRA,
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> semiliterate knuckle-draggers are only too eager to start a
>> race /
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> "religious" war in the U.S., and the candidates, allowed to
>> start their
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> noisome campaigns two years in advance of an actual
>> election, are only
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> egging them on.
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> I live in a state where black churches were burned, in a
>> city
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> with clear color lines.  I'm not afraid of black people.
>> I'm afraid of
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> shitheads teething for glory.
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 7:37 PM, David Kilroy
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> <thesaintgodard at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Apologies for harping on this point.  Know that I do.  But
>> it
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> frankly terrifies me.
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 7:17 PM, David Kilroy
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> <thesaintgodard at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> (shades of Lot 49, too: recall the swastika armbands)
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 7:16 PM, David Kilroy
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> <thesaintgodard at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> The tech sector's too "What, me worry?" about the problem.
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Anonymity in comments threads, Craigslist, 4chan, Reddit et
>> al
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> permit open promulgation of hate speech.  Most sites, when
>> confronted about
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> the problem, cite free speech as a concern when the fact is
>> they don't want
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> to face the added hassle of verifying accounts and making
>> people responsible
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> for their words.
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> There's a massive network of these shitheads armed for a
>> race
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> riot and no-one seems to want to stop them.
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 5:05 PM, Steven Koteff
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> <steviekoteff at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks a lot for this, Mark. Reading it now, and I agree
>> with
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> you. Very smart and sadder for it.
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Mark Kohut
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Charlie Pierce on the Powder Keg that is the United States
>> of
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> America
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> right now
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a39987/america-race-powderkeg/
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> …
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> -
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> --
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> http://davidkilroy.tumblr.com/
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> --
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> http://davidkilroy.tumblr.com/
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> --
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> http://davidkilroy.tumblr.com/
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> --
>> >>> >>>>>>>>> http://davidkilroy.tumblr.com/
>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>>>> -
>> >>> >>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> >>> >>>>>>> -
>> >>> >>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list
>> >>> >>>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>> -
>> >>> >>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> -
>> >>> >>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> >>> >>> -
>> >>> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> -
>> >>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> >>> >
>> >>> > -
>> >>> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> >>> -
>> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> -
>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>
>
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