Tangentially Pynchon. see today's Google Doodle

Thu May 5 15:14:38 CDT 2016

You will listen to Monte.
Good dog that you are.

On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 10:57 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> Ish,
>
> You have failed (once again) to make me pay any attention to your posts.  I
> inevitably delete them before completing the first sentence.
>
> David Morris
>
> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 9:49 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> David,
>>
>> On this thread and on the Holocaust thread you have failed to
>> understand the use of terms. On the Holocaust, the post from Rich was
>> very good. I suggest you re-read it and reconsider how the words, like
>> "depict",  "holocaust" , "genocide" are being used by your
>> interlocutors. Rich demonstrates, with a gentle didactic post, a
>> strategy you seem to prefer but hypocritically rarely employ,  much
>> knowledge of the camps and what happened at each and how one could
>> certainly, as Doug has, for example, conclude that the holocaust is
>> present in GR. On Anarchy, Mark intimated that the word has several
>> meanings and that he was not using the term to mean no planning or the
>> lack of any plan. Again, if you reconsider your rigid readings of
>> terms, you, an obvious authority, may still, learn something new.
>>
>> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 9:37 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I also apologize for taking my objection to the label too far.  The fact
>> > that others have slapped the anarchy label on her isn't much of an
>> > argument
>> > about the content of her theories.  My post about her championing the
>> > "urban
>> > villiage" against Pruitt-Igoe is the most direct description of her
>> > work.  I
>> > would call that "organic."
>> >
>> > I agree it is semantic, but "anarchy" has connotations of "no-planning"
>> > that
>> > don't fit her at all. The fact that the Austrian Economics Cult embraced
>> > (hijacked) her as "Anti-Planner" shows how labels can be misleading and
>> > counter-productive.  Their "connection" with her is parasitic.
>> >
>> > David Morris
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> OK...I apologize for going on after my simple post yesterday....I did
>> >> not
>> >> think it was so contestable.
>> >> as this wiki entry sez, as is true of most major words describing
>> >> ideas,
>> >> 'There are many meanings to
>> >> anarchism and not all of them are mutually exclusive"
>> >>
>> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism
>> >>
>> >> In yesterday's Google Doodle article and in many summary presentations
>> >> of
>> >> Ms Jacobs' notions,
>> >> the phrase 'street ballet" from her (or about her vision, don't know)
>> >> is
>> >> used as the positive vision she
>> >> argued for deeply re the ineradicable human quality she believed
>> >> necessary
>> >> for right city life.
>> >>
>> >> Knowing her work far less than Morris, that phrase and concept came to
>> >> remind me later of, among other things,
>> >> the anarchist's dance scene in Lot 49, under the bridge, everyone not
>> >> bumping, a self-organizing dance/ballet
>> >> that is part of TRP's vision, his hopeful vision. Then there is the
>> >> anarchy theme in Against the Day.
>> >>
>> >> When I would walk NY streets, including the Village or visit Washington
>> >> Square or Union Square parks and see
>> >> 1) chess hustlers playing 2) skateboarders 3) walkers 4) runners 5)
>> >> simple
>> >> stretchers and exercisers 6) sunbathers
>> >> sunning 6) couples holding hands 7) couples canoodling 8) little
>> >> picnics
>> >> 9) readers sitting 10) kids playing marbles
>> >> and more ....I would lightly marvel at how it all happened on its own,
>> >> self-organized, little or no bumping, so to say,  later coming to see
>> >> it under the label of a kind of social anarchy good.
>> >>
>> >> My attempt yesterday to link Jacobs 'street ballet' to a Pynchon's
>> >> notion
>> >> of anarchy was just a speculative attempt
>> >> to point out that he lived in the Village when Jane was an activist
>> >> with
>> >> her 'radical' notions; he was around when her
>> >> first book was published......I have asked myself and haven't found it
>> >> in
>> >> the scholars of TRP I've read where TRP's notions
>> >> re anarchism might have come from....theorists like Kropotkin and
>> >> Herzen---we know he went to see Stoppard's play
>> >> on all these Russians decades later so there is them as a possible
>> >> influence but I have also wondered about
>> >> such as New Yorkers Goodman and Jacobs....
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 7:48 AM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Oh! I finally got the joke!
>> >>> Wherein the P-list debates the definition of anarchy.
>> >>> I'm with Joseph.
>> >>> But what we really need is a someone who can authorise which
>> >>> definition is correct.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 9:02 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>> >>> > To my thinking this is semantic. If by anarchic we mean mean an
>> >>> > organizational tendency from less to no central authority or
>> >>> > command, then
>> >>> > Mark and other writers are using the term reasonably. If one means a
>> >>> > political ideology with no executive decision makers and a
>> >>> > committment to
>> >>> > removing those in authority, then you win...
>> >>> >> On May 4, 2016, at 5:13 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> >>> >> wrote:
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> To champion grass-roots  social-based urbanism (championing "urban
>> >>> >> villages," essentially) as opposed to the modernist urban renewal
>> >>> >> ideals of
>> >>> >> her time, doesn't make her in any way anarchistic.  She was opposed
>> >>> >> to
>> >>> >> Modernism's ideals for urbanism.  It has now long been recognized
>> >>> >> that her
>> >>> >> concepts of an organic people-oriented urbanism is much more
>> >>> >> livable than
>> >>> >> what she opposed.  Essentially she was pointing out that the
>> >>> >> ghettos that
>> >>> >> were being torn down were much more livable that the Pruitt-Igoe
>> >>> >> style
>> >>> >> urbanism that was being proposed to replace it.  She was right.
>> >>> >> Labeling
>> >>> >> that stance as "anarchism" is silly and misses the main ideas she
>> >>> >> promoted.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> This (Pruitt-Igoe) is what she opposed:
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/apr/22/pruitt-igoe-high-rise-urban-america-history-cities
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> And the earlier city which surrounds the project (which was not the
>> >>> >> product of anarchy in any meaningful sense - except as opposed to
>> >>> >> Pruitt-Igoe)  in the photo is what she championed.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> David Morris
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 3:48 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >>> >> wrote:
>> >>> >> David,
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> There is a deep strain of human-sized, freedom-embracing,
>> >>> >> non-top-down, self-organizing activities which
>> >>> >> have been written about even here as 'anarchism'. See the anarchist
>> >>> >> dance in Lot 49.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Jacob's vision of city life has been seen under these concepts by
>> >>> >> many
>> >>> >> for a long time: Here is the estimable
>> >>> >> Richard Sennet for one: As Jane Jacobs points out, high
>> >>> >> concentration
>> >>> >> of dwelling units per acre and high land coverage are essential to
>> >>> >> the ...
>> >>> >> 1969), and the appreciative review by Richard Sennett, “The
>> >>> >> Anarchism of
>> >>> >> Jane Jacobs,” New York Review of Books ...
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> There are scores more which I am not hunting down. it is her vision
>> >>> >> of
>> >>> >> urban living, and parts of mumford's which might relate
>> >>> >> them to Pynchon and are what I was referring to.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 4:12 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> >>> >> wrote:
>> >>> >> Jane Jacobs was in no way connected to anarchism, but, like
>> >>> >> Mumford,
>> >>> >> she was a proponent of urban living, as are most architects just
>> >>> >> about
>> >>> >> anywhere...
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> David Morris
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >>> >> wrote:
>> >>> >> about urban theorist Jane Jacobs. Read up and see that
>> >>> >> she shared many notions with Lewis Mumford, discussed a lot
>> >>> >> here on the List. Her ideas of a vibrant diverse 'anarchic' street
>> >>> >> and storefront life might dovetail with many of P's meanings of
>> >>> >> anarchic goodness.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Remember that she lived in Greenwich Village, near Barthelme
>> >>> >> (therefore
>> >>> >> Pynchon) I believe and Grace Paley and her husband
>> >>> >> most of the time TRP was supposed to have
>> >>> >> lived there. I think.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Everything connects.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >
>> >>> > -
>> >>> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> >>> -
>> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> -
>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
>
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Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l