Tangentially Pynchon. see today's Google Doodle

Thu May 5 15:45:58 CDT 2016

The P-list is looking more & more like the good/bad old days, when you were
Terrance.

David Morris

On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 3:14 PM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:

> You will listen to Monte.
> Good dog that you are.
>
> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 10:57 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Ish,
> >
> > You have failed (once again) to make me pay any attention to your
> posts.  I
> > inevitably delete them before completing the first sentence.
> >
> > David Morris
> >
> > On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 9:49 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> David,
> >>
> >> On this thread and on the Holocaust thread you have failed to
> >> understand the use of terms. On the Holocaust, the post from Rich was
> >> very good. I suggest you re-read it and reconsider how the words, like
> >> "depict",  "holocaust" , "genocide" are being used by your
> >> interlocutors. Rich demonstrates, with a gentle didactic post, a
> >> strategy you seem to prefer but hypocritically rarely employ,  much
> >> knowledge of the camps and what happened at each and how one could
> >> certainly, as Doug has, for example, conclude that the holocaust is
> >> present in GR. On Anarchy, Mark intimated that the word has several
> >> meanings and that he was not using the term to mean no planning or the
> >> lack of any plan. Again, if you reconsider your rigid readings of
> >> terms, you, an obvious authority, may still, learn something new.
> >>
> >> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 9:37 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> > I also apologize for taking my objection to the label too far.  The
> fact
> >> > that others have slapped the anarchy label on her isn't much of an
> >> > argument
> >> > about the content of her theories.  My post about her championing the
> >> > "urban
> >> > villiage" against Pruitt-Igoe is the most direct description of her
> >> > work.  I
> >> > would call that "organic."
> >> >
> >> > I agree it is semantic, but "anarchy" has connotations of
> "no-planning"
> >> > that
> >> > don't fit her at all. The fact that the Austrian Economics Cult
> embraced
> >> > (hijacked) her as "Anti-Planner" shows how labels can be misleading
> and
> >> > counter-productive.  Their "connection" with her is parasitic.
> >> >
> >> > David Morris
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> OK...I apologize for going on after my simple post yesterday....I did
> >> >> not
> >> >> think it was so contestable.
> >> >> as this wiki entry sez, as is true of most major words describing
> >> >> ideas,
> >> >> 'There are many meanings to
> >> >> anarchism and not all of them are mutually exclusive"
> >> >>
> >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism
> >> >>
> >> >> In yesterday's Google Doodle article and in many summary
> presentations
> >> >> of
> >> >> Ms Jacobs' notions,
> >> >> the phrase 'street ballet" from her (or about her vision, don't know)
> >> >> is
> >> >> used as the positive vision she
> >> >> argued for deeply re the ineradicable human quality she believed
> >> >> necessary
> >> >> for right city life.
> >> >>
> >> >> Knowing her work far less than Morris, that phrase and concept came
> to
> >> >> remind me later of, among other things,
> >> >> the anarchist's dance scene in Lot 49, under the bridge, everyone not
> >> >> bumping, a self-organizing dance/ballet
> >> >> that is part of TRP's vision, his hopeful vision. Then there is the
> >> >> anarchy theme in Against the Day.
> >> >>
> >> >> When I would walk NY streets, including the Village or visit
> Washington
> >> >> Square or Union Square parks and see
> >> >> 1) chess hustlers playing 2) skateboarders 3) walkers 4) runners 5)
> >> >> simple
> >> >> stretchers and exercisers 6) sunbathers
> >> >> sunning 6) couples holding hands 7) couples canoodling 8) little
> >> >> picnics
> >> >> 9) readers sitting 10) kids playing marbles
> >> >> and more ....I would lightly marvel at how it all happened on its
> own,
> >> >> self-organized, little or no bumping, so to say,  later coming to see
> >> >> it under the label of a kind of social anarchy good.
> >> >>
> >> >> My attempt yesterday to link Jacobs 'street ballet' to a Pynchon's
> >> >> notion
> >> >> of anarchy was just a speculative attempt
> >> >> to point out that he lived in the Village when Jane was an activist
> >> >> with
> >> >> her 'radical' notions; he was around when her
> >> >> first book was published......I have asked myself and haven't found
> it
> >> >> in
> >> >> the scholars of TRP I've read where TRP's notions
> >> >> re anarchism might have come from....theorists like Kropotkin and
> >> >> Herzen---we know he went to see Stoppard's play
> >> >> on all these Russians decades later so there is them as a possible
> >> >> influence but I have also wondered about
> >> >> such as New Yorkers Goodman and Jacobs....
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 7:48 AM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Oh! I finally got the joke!
> >> >>> Wherein the P-list debates the definition of anarchy.
> >> >>> I'm with Joseph.
> >> >>> But what we really need is a someone who can authorise which
> >> >>> definition is correct.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 9:02 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
> wrote:
> >> >>> > To my thinking this is semantic. If by anarchic we mean mean an
> >> >>> > organizational tendency from less to no central authority or
> >> >>> > command, then
> >> >>> > Mark and other writers are using the term reasonably. If one
> means a
> >> >>> > political ideology with no executive decision makers and a
> >> >>> > committment to
> >> >>> > removing those in authority, then you win...
> >> >>> >> On May 4, 2016, at 5:13 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> >> >>> >> wrote:
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> To champion grass-roots  social-based urbanism (championing
> "urban
> >> >>> >> villages," essentially) as opposed to the modernist urban renewal
> >> >>> >> ideals of
> >> >>> >> her time, doesn't make her in any way anarchistic.  She was
> opposed
> >> >>> >> to
> >> >>> >> Modernism's ideals for urbanism.  It has now long been recognized
> >> >>> >> that her
> >> >>> >> concepts of an organic people-oriented urbanism is much more
> >> >>> >> livable than
> >> >>> >> what she opposed.  Essentially she was pointing out that the
> >> >>> >> ghettos that
> >> >>> >> were being torn down were much more livable that the Pruitt-Igoe
> >> >>> >> style
> >> >>> >> urbanism that was being proposed to replace it.  She was right.
> >> >>> >> Labeling
> >> >>> >> that stance as "anarchism" is silly and misses the main ideas she
> >> >>> >> promoted.
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> This (Pruitt-Igoe) is what she opposed:
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >>
> http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/apr/22/pruitt-igoe-high-rise-urban-america-history-cities
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> And the earlier city which surrounds the project (which was not
> the
> >> >>> >> product of anarchy in any meaningful sense - except as opposed to
> >> >>> >> Pruitt-Igoe)  in the photo is what she championed.
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> David Morris
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 3:48 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com
> >
> >> >>> >> wrote:
> >> >>> >> David,
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> There is a deep strain of human-sized, freedom-embracing,
> >> >>> >> non-top-down, self-organizing activities which
> >> >>> >> have been written about even here as 'anarchism'. See the
> anarchist
> >> >>> >> dance in Lot 49.
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> Jacob's vision of city life has been seen under these concepts by
> >> >>> >> many
> >> >>> >> for a long time: Here is the estimable
> >> >>> >> Richard Sennet for one: As Jane Jacobs points out, high
> >> >>> >> concentration
> >> >>> >> of dwelling units per acre and high land coverage are essential
> to
> >> >>> >> the ...
> >> >>> >> 1969), and the appreciative review by Richard Sennett, “The
> >> >>> >> Anarchism of
> >> >>> >> Jane Jacobs,” New York Review of Books ...
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> There are scores more which I am not hunting down. it is her
> vision
> >> >>> >> of
> >> >>> >> urban living, and parts of mumford's which might relate
> >> >>> >> them to Pynchon and are what I was referring to.
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 4:12 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com
> >
> >> >>> >> wrote:
> >> >>> >> Jane Jacobs was in no way connected to anarchism, but, like
> >> >>> >> Mumford,
> >> >>> >> she was a proponent of urban living, as are most architects just
> >> >>> >> about
> >> >>> >> anywhere...
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> David Morris
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com
> >
> >> >>> >> wrote:
> >> >>> >> about urban theorist Jane Jacobs. Read up and see that
> >> >>> >> she shared many notions with Lewis Mumford, discussed a lot
> >> >>> >> here on the List. Her ideas of a vibrant diverse 'anarchic'
> street
> >> >>> >> and storefront life might dovetail with many of P's meanings of
> >> >>> >> anarchic goodness.
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> Remember that she lived in Greenwich Village, near Barthelme
> >> >>> >> (therefore
> >> >>> >> Pynchon) I believe and Grace Paley and her husband
> >> >>> >> most of the time TRP was supposed to have
> >> >>> >> lived there. I think.
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >> Everything connects.
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > -
> >> >>> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >> >>> -
> >> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> -
> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >
> >
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
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