Tangentially Pynchon. see today's Google Doodle

Sat May 7 12:22:28 CDT 2016

Umm -- space the buildings a bit more widely, add more lawns and trees, and
you get this -- 25,000 residents in 110 buildings :
 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Peter_Cooper_Village_and_Stuyvesant_Town.jpg
<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Peter_Cooper_Village_and_Stuyvesant_Town.jpg>

Which I hope didn't dehumanize me too much at 10 when my family moved there
from a single-family home in a low-density Boston suburb, or my parents as
they lived there for 25 years until they retired. We found it a safe,
comfortable, impeccably maintained place to live, with a local social
network not all that different from what we'd had before.

Which might be a hint that looking like a computer chip -- or the streets
of San Narciso looking like copper traces on a circuit board -- doesn't
actually tell you much. PCV-Stuyvesant Town differed from Pruitt-Igoe,
above all in higher tenant income and social capital (and yeah, that meant
mostly white and upper-blue-collar to middle-white-collar at the time),
private ownership and management (and no, that is not a way of saying
government can't do urban housing right). Those far outweighed the
influence, if any, of design. Let's not aestheticize too much.

On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 12:43 PM, Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/apr/22/pruitt-igoe-high-rise-urban-america-history-cities
>
> This place looks terrible! It looks like a big computer chip. A horribly
> dehumanizing place to live...
>
> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 6:10 PM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I like you Morris. A good dog is hard to find.
>>
>> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 6:09 PM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > So you are bored now and would rather we flame and fight and fuck with
>> > one another? Is that it? Bring back the bad old days?
>> >
>> > Grow the fuck up. Get a life.
>> > Of lick your balls for a while. Relax.
>> >
>> > On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 4:45 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> The P-list is looking more & more like the good/bad old days, when you
>> were
>> >> Terrance.
>> >>
>> >> David Morris
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 3:14 PM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> You will listen to Monte.
>> >>> Good dog that you are.
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 10:57 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>> > Ish,
>> >>> >
>> >>> > You have failed (once again) to make me pay any attention to your
>> posts.
>> >>> > I
>> >>> > inevitably delete them before completing the first sentence.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > David Morris
>> >>> >
>> >>> > On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 9:49 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>> >>> > wrote:
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> David,
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> On this thread and on the Holocaust thread you have failed to
>> >>> >> understand the use of terms. On the Holocaust, the post from Rich
>> was
>> >>> >> very good. I suggest you re-read it and reconsider how the words,
>> like
>> >>> >> "depict",  "holocaust" , "genocide" are being used by your
>> >>> >> interlocutors. Rich demonstrates, with a gentle didactic post, a
>> >>> >> strategy you seem to prefer but hypocritically rarely employ,  much
>> >>> >> knowledge of the camps and what happened at each and how one could
>> >>> >> certainly, as Doug has, for example, conclude that the holocaust is
>> >>> >> present in GR. On Anarchy, Mark intimated that the word has several
>> >>> >> meanings and that he was not using the term to mean no planning or
>> the
>> >>> >> lack of any plan. Again, if you reconsider your rigid readings of
>> >>> >> terms, you, an obvious authority, may still, learn something new.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 9:37 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> >>> >> wrote:
>> >>> >> > I also apologize for taking my objection to the label too far.
>> The
>> >>> >> > fact
>> >>> >> > that others have slapped the anarchy label on her isn't much of
>> an
>> >>> >> > argument
>> >>> >> > about the content of her theories.  My post about her
>> championing the
>> >>> >> > "urban
>> >>> >> > villiage" against Pruitt-Igoe is the most direct description of
>> her
>> >>> >> > work.  I
>> >>> >> > would call that "organic."
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> > I agree it is semantic, but "anarchy" has connotations of
>> >>> >> > "no-planning"
>> >>> >> > that
>> >>> >> > don't fit her at all. The fact that the Austrian Economics Cult
>> >>> >> > embraced
>> >>> >> > (hijacked) her as "Anti-Planner" shows how labels can be
>> misleading
>> >>> >> > and
>> >>> >> > counter-productive.  Their "connection" with her is parasitic.
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> > David Morris
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> > On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com
>> >
>> >>> >> > wrote:
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> OK...I apologize for going on after my simple post
>> yesterday....I
>> >>> >> >> did
>> >>> >> >> not
>> >>> >> >> think it was so contestable.
>> >>> >> >> as this wiki entry sez, as is true of most major words
>> describing
>> >>> >> >> ideas,
>> >>> >> >> 'There are many meanings to
>> >>> >> >> anarchism and not all of them are mutually exclusive"
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> In yesterday's Google Doodle article and in many summary
>> >>> >> >> presentations
>> >>> >> >> of
>> >>> >> >> Ms Jacobs' notions,
>> >>> >> >> the phrase 'street ballet" from her (or about her vision, don't
>> >>> >> >> know)
>> >>> >> >> is
>> >>> >> >> used as the positive vision she
>> >>> >> >> argued for deeply re the ineradicable human quality she believed
>> >>> >> >> necessary
>> >>> >> >> for right city life.
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> Knowing her work far less than Morris, that phrase and concept
>> came
>> >>> >> >> to
>> >>> >> >> remind me later of, among other things,
>> >>> >> >> the anarchist's dance scene in Lot 49, under the bridge,
>> everyone
>> >>> >> >> not
>> >>> >> >> bumping, a self-organizing dance/ballet
>> >>> >> >> that is part of TRP's vision, his hopeful vision. Then there is
>> the
>> >>> >> >> anarchy theme in Against the Day.
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> When I would walk NY streets, including the Village or visit
>> >>> >> >> Washington
>> >>> >> >> Square or Union Square parks and see
>> >>> >> >> 1) chess hustlers playing 2) skateboarders 3) walkers 4)
>> runners 5)
>> >>> >> >> simple
>> >>> >> >> stretchers and exercisers 6) sunbathers
>> >>> >> >> sunning 6) couples holding hands 7) couples canoodling 8) little
>> >>> >> >> picnics
>> >>> >> >> 9) readers sitting 10) kids playing marbles
>> >>> >> >> and more ....I would lightly marvel at how it all happened on
>> its
>> >>> >> >> own,
>> >>> >> >> self-organized, little or no bumping, so to say,  later coming
>> to
>> >>> >> >> see
>> >>> >> >> it under the label of a kind of social anarchy good.
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> My attempt yesterday to link Jacobs 'street ballet' to a
>> Pynchon's
>> >>> >> >> notion
>> >>> >> >> of anarchy was just a speculative attempt
>> >>> >> >> to point out that he lived in the Village when Jane was an
>> activist
>> >>> >> >> with
>> >>> >> >> her 'radical' notions; he was around when her
>> >>> >> >> first book was published......I have asked myself and haven't
>> found
>> >>> >> >> it
>> >>> >> >> in
>> >>> >> >> the scholars of TRP I've read where TRP's notions
>> >>> >> >> re anarchism might have come from....theorists like Kropotkin
>> and
>> >>> >> >> Herzen---we know he went to see Stoppard's play
>> >>> >> >> on all these Russians decades later so there is them as a
>> possible
>> >>> >> >> influence but I have also wondered about
>> >>> >> >> such as New Yorkers Goodman and Jacobs....
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 7:48 AM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com
>> >
>> >>> >> >> wrote:
>> >>> >> >>>
>> >>> >> >>> Oh! I finally got the joke!
>> >>> >> >>> Wherein the P-list debates the definition of anarchy.
>> >>> >> >>> I'm with Joseph.
>> >>> >> >>> But what we really need is a someone who can authorise which
>> >>> >> >>> definition is correct.
>> >>> >> >>>
>> >>> >> >>>
>> >>> >> >>> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 9:02 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net
>> >
>> >>> >> >>> wrote:
>> >>> >> >>> > To my thinking this is semantic. If by anarchic we mean mean
>> an
>> >>> >> >>> > organizational tendency from less to no central authority or
>> >>> >> >>> > command, then
>> >>> >> >>> > Mark and other writers are using the term reasonably. If one
>> >>> >> >>> > means a
>> >>> >> >>> > political ideology with no executive decision makers and a
>> >>> >> >>> > committment to
>> >>> >> >>> > removing those in authority, then you win...
>> >>> >> >>> >> On May 4, 2016, at 5:13 PM, David Morris <
>> fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> >>> >> >>> >> wrote:
>> >>> >> >>> >>
>> >>> >> >>> >> To champion grass-roots  social-based urbanism (championing
>> >>> >> >>> >> "urban
>> >>> >> >>> >> villages," essentially) as opposed to the modernist urban
>> >>> >> >>> >> renewal
>> >>> >> >>> >> ideals of
>> >>> >> >>> >> her time, doesn't make her in any way anarchistic.  She was
>> >>> >> >>> >> opposed
>> >>> >> >>> >> to
>> >>> >> >>> >> Modernism's ideals for urbanism.  It has now long been
>> >>> >> >>> >> recognized
>> >>> >> >>> >> that her
>> >>> >> >>> >> concepts of an organic people-oriented urbanism is much more
>> >>> >> >>> >> livable than
>> >>> >> >>> >> what she opposed.  Essentially she was pointing out that the
>> >>> >> >>> >> ghettos that
>> >>> >> >>> >> were being torn down were much more livable that the
>> Pruitt-Igoe
>> >>> >> >>> >> style
>> >>> >> >>> >> urbanism that was being proposed to replace it.  She was
>> right.
>> >>> >> >>> >> Labeling
>> >>> >> >>> >> that stance as "anarchism" is silly and misses the main
>> ideas
>> >>> >> >>> >> she
>> >>> >> >>> >> promoted.
>> >>> >> >>> >>
>> >>> >> >>> >> This (Pruitt-Igoe) is what she opposed:
>> >>> >> >>> >>
>> >>> >> >>> >>
>> >>> >> >>> >>
>> >>> >> >>> >>
>> >>> >> >>> >>
>> http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/apr/22/pruitt-igoe-high-rise-urban-america-history-cities
>> >>> >> >>> >>
>> >>> >> >>> >> And the earlier city which surrounds the project (which was
>> not
>> >>> >> >>> >> the
>> >>> >> >>> >> product of anarchy in any meaningful sense - except as
>> opposed
>> >>> >> >>> >> to
>> >>> >> >>> >> Pruitt-Igoe)  in the photo is what she championed.
>> >>> >> >>> >>
>> >>> >> >>> >> David Morris
>> >>> >> >>> >>
>> >>> >> >>> >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 3:48 PM, Mark Kohut
>> >>> >> >>> >> <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >>> >> >>> >> wrote:
>> >>> >> >>> >> David,
>> >>> >> >>> >>
>> >>> >> >>> >> There is a deep strain of human-sized, freedom-embracing,
>> >>> >> >>> >> non-top-down, self-organizing activities which
>> >>> >> >>> >> have been written about even here as 'anarchism'. See the
>> >>> >> >>> >> anarchist
>> >>> >> >>> >> dance in Lot 49.
>> >>> >> >>> >>
>> >>> >> >>> >> Jacob's vision of city life has been seen under these
>> concepts
>> >>> >> >>> >> by
>> >>> >> >>> >> many
>> >>> >> >>> >> for a long time: Here is the estimable
>> >>> >> >>> >> Richard Sennet for one: As Jane Jacobs points out, high
>> >>> >> >>> >> concentration
>> >>> >> >>> >> of dwelling units per acre and high land coverage are
>> essential
>> >>> >> >>> >> to
>> >>> >> >>> >> the ...
>> >>> >> >>> >> 1969), and the appreciative review by Richard Sennett, “The
>> >>> >> >>> >> Anarchism of
>> >>> >> >>> >> Jane Jacobs,” New York Review of Books ...
>> >>> >> >>> >>
>> >>> >> >>> >> There are scores more which I am not hunting down. it is her
>> >>> >> >>> >> vision
>> >>> >> >>> >> of
>> >>> >> >>> >> urban living, and parts of mumford's which might relate
>> >>> >> >>> >> them to Pynchon and are what I was referring to.
>> >>> >> >>> >>
>> >>> >> >>> >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 4:12 PM, David Morris
>> >>> >> >>> >> <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> >>> >> >>> >> wrote:
>> >>> >> >>> >> Jane Jacobs was in no way connected to anarchism, but, like
>> >>> >> >>> >> Mumford,
>> >>> >> >>> >> she was a proponent of urban living, as are most architects
>> just
>> >>> >> >>> >> about
>> >>> >> >>> >> anywhere...
>> >>> >> >>> >>
>> >>> >> >>> >> David Morris
>> >>> >> >>> >>
>> >>> >> >>> >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Mark Kohut
>> >>> >> >>> >> <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >>> >> >>> >> wrote:
>> >>> >> >>> >> about urban theorist Jane Jacobs. Read up and see that
>> >>> >> >>> >> she shared many notions with Lewis Mumford, discussed a lot
>> >>> >> >>> >> here on the List. Her ideas of a vibrant diverse 'anarchic'
>> >>> >> >>> >> street
>> >>> >> >>> >> and storefront life might dovetail with many of P's
>> meanings of
>> >>> >> >>> >> anarchic goodness.
>> >>> >> >>> >>
>> >>> >> >>> >> Remember that she lived in Greenwich Village, near Barthelme
>> >>> >> >>> >> (therefore
>> >>> >> >>> >> Pynchon) I believe and Grace Paley and her husband
>> >>> >> >>> >> most of the time TRP was supposed to have
>> >>> >> >>> >> lived there. I think.
>> >>> >> >>> >>
>> >>> >> >>> >> Everything connects.
>> >>> >> >>> >>
>> >>> >> >>> >>
>> >>> >> >>> >>
>> >>> >> >>> >
>> >>> >> >>> > -
>> >>> >> >>> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> >>> >> >>> -
>> >>> >> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> -
>> >>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> -
>> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> >>
>> >>
>> -
>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>
>
>
>
> --
> www.innergroovemusic.com
>
>
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