Tangentially Pynchon. see today's Google Doodle

Sat May 7 11:43:13 CDT 2016

http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/apr/22/pruitt-igoe-high-rise-urban-america-history-cities

This place looks terrible! It looks like a big computer chip. A horribly
dehumanizing place to live...

On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 6:10 PM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:

> I like you Morris. A good dog is hard to find.
>
> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 6:09 PM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:
> > So you are bored now and would rather we flame and fight and fuck with
> > one another? Is that it? Bring back the bad old days?
> >
> > Grow the fuck up. Get a life.
> > Of lick your balls for a while. Relax.
> >
> > On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 4:45 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> The P-list is looking more & more like the good/bad old days, when you
> were
> >> Terrance.
> >>
> >> David Morris
> >>
> >> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 3:14 PM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> You will listen to Monte.
> >>> Good dog that you are.
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 10:57 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>> > Ish,
> >>> >
> >>> > You have failed (once again) to make me pay any attention to your
> posts.
> >>> > I
> >>> > inevitably delete them before completing the first sentence.
> >>> >
> >>> > David Morris
> >>> >
> >>> > On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 9:49 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
> >>> > wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> David,
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On this thread and on the Holocaust thread you have failed to
> >>> >> understand the use of terms. On the Holocaust, the post from Rich
> was
> >>> >> very good. I suggest you re-read it and reconsider how the words,
> like
> >>> >> "depict",  "holocaust" , "genocide" are being used by your
> >>> >> interlocutors. Rich demonstrates, with a gentle didactic post, a
> >>> >> strategy you seem to prefer but hypocritically rarely employ,  much
> >>> >> knowledge of the camps and what happened at each and how one could
> >>> >> certainly, as Doug has, for example, conclude that the holocaust is
> >>> >> present in GR. On Anarchy, Mark intimated that the word has several
> >>> >> meanings and that he was not using the term to mean no planning or
> the
> >>> >> lack of any plan. Again, if you reconsider your rigid readings of
> >>> >> terms, you, an obvious authority, may still, learn something new.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 9:37 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> >>> >> wrote:
> >>> >> > I also apologize for taking my objection to the label too far.
> The
> >>> >> > fact
> >>> >> > that others have slapped the anarchy label on her isn't much of an
> >>> >> > argument
> >>> >> > about the content of her theories.  My post about her championing
> the
> >>> >> > "urban
> >>> >> > villiage" against Pruitt-Igoe is the most direct description of
> her
> >>> >> > work.  I
> >>> >> > would call that "organic."
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > I agree it is semantic, but "anarchy" has connotations of
> >>> >> > "no-planning"
> >>> >> > that
> >>> >> > don't fit her at all. The fact that the Austrian Economics Cult
> >>> >> > embraced
> >>> >> > (hijacked) her as "Anti-Planner" shows how labels can be
> misleading
> >>> >> > and
> >>> >> > counter-productive.  Their "connection" with her is parasitic.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > David Morris
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
> >>> >> > wrote:
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> OK...I apologize for going on after my simple post yesterday....I
> >>> >> >> did
> >>> >> >> not
> >>> >> >> think it was so contestable.
> >>> >> >> as this wiki entry sez, as is true of most major words describing
> >>> >> >> ideas,
> >>> >> >> 'There are many meanings to
> >>> >> >> anarchism and not all of them are mutually exclusive"
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> In yesterday's Google Doodle article and in many summary
> >>> >> >> presentations
> >>> >> >> of
> >>> >> >> Ms Jacobs' notions,
> >>> >> >> the phrase 'street ballet" from her (or about her vision, don't
> >>> >> >> know)
> >>> >> >> is
> >>> >> >> used as the positive vision she
> >>> >> >> argued for deeply re the ineradicable human quality she believed
> >>> >> >> necessary
> >>> >> >> for right city life.
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> Knowing her work far less than Morris, that phrase and concept
> came
> >>> >> >> to
> >>> >> >> remind me later of, among other things,
> >>> >> >> the anarchist's dance scene in Lot 49, under the bridge, everyone
> >>> >> >> not
> >>> >> >> bumping, a self-organizing dance/ballet
> >>> >> >> that is part of TRP's vision, his hopeful vision. Then there is
> the
> >>> >> >> anarchy theme in Against the Day.
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> When I would walk NY streets, including the Village or visit
> >>> >> >> Washington
> >>> >> >> Square or Union Square parks and see
> >>> >> >> 1) chess hustlers playing 2) skateboarders 3) walkers 4) runners
> 5)
> >>> >> >> simple
> >>> >> >> stretchers and exercisers 6) sunbathers
> >>> >> >> sunning 6) couples holding hands 7) couples canoodling 8) little
> >>> >> >> picnics
> >>> >> >> 9) readers sitting 10) kids playing marbles
> >>> >> >> and more ....I would lightly marvel at how it all happened on its
> >>> >> >> own,
> >>> >> >> self-organized, little or no bumping, so to say,  later coming to
> >>> >> >> see
> >>> >> >> it under the label of a kind of social anarchy good.
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> My attempt yesterday to link Jacobs 'street ballet' to a
> Pynchon's
> >>> >> >> notion
> >>> >> >> of anarchy was just a speculative attempt
> >>> >> >> to point out that he lived in the Village when Jane was an
> activist
> >>> >> >> with
> >>> >> >> her 'radical' notions; he was around when her
> >>> >> >> first book was published......I have asked myself and haven't
> found
> >>> >> >> it
> >>> >> >> in
> >>> >> >> the scholars of TRP I've read where TRP's notions
> >>> >> >> re anarchism might have come from....theorists like Kropotkin and
> >>> >> >> Herzen---we know he went to see Stoppard's play
> >>> >> >> on all these Russians decades later so there is them as a
> possible
> >>> >> >> influence but I have also wondered about
> >>> >> >> such as New Yorkers Goodman and Jacobs....
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 7:48 AM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com>
> >>> >> >> wrote:
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>> Oh! I finally got the joke!
> >>> >> >>> Wherein the P-list debates the definition of anarchy.
> >>> >> >>> I'm with Joseph.
> >>> >> >>> But what we really need is a someone who can authorise which
> >>> >> >>> definition is correct.
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>>
> >>> >> >>> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 9:02 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
> >>> >> >>> wrote:
> >>> >> >>> > To my thinking this is semantic. If by anarchic we mean mean
> an
> >>> >> >>> > organizational tendency from less to no central authority or
> >>> >> >>> > command, then
> >>> >> >>> > Mark and other writers are using the term reasonably. If one
> >>> >> >>> > means a
> >>> >> >>> > political ideology with no executive decision makers and a
> >>> >> >>> > committment to
> >>> >> >>> > removing those in authority, then you win...
> >>> >> >>> >> On May 4, 2016, at 5:13 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com
> >
> >>> >> >>> >> wrote:
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >> To champion grass-roots  social-based urbanism (championing
> >>> >> >>> >> "urban
> >>> >> >>> >> villages," essentially) as opposed to the modernist urban
> >>> >> >>> >> renewal
> >>> >> >>> >> ideals of
> >>> >> >>> >> her time, doesn't make her in any way anarchistic.  She was
> >>> >> >>> >> opposed
> >>> >> >>> >> to
> >>> >> >>> >> Modernism's ideals for urbanism.  It has now long been
> >>> >> >>> >> recognized
> >>> >> >>> >> that her
> >>> >> >>> >> concepts of an organic people-oriented urbanism is much more
> >>> >> >>> >> livable than
> >>> >> >>> >> what she opposed.  Essentially she was pointing out that the
> >>> >> >>> >> ghettos that
> >>> >> >>> >> were being torn down were much more livable that the
> Pruitt-Igoe
> >>> >> >>> >> style
> >>> >> >>> >> urbanism that was being proposed to replace it.  She was
> right.
> >>> >> >>> >> Labeling
> >>> >> >>> >> that stance as "anarchism" is silly and misses the main ideas
> >>> >> >>> >> she
> >>> >> >>> >> promoted.
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >> This (Pruitt-Igoe) is what she opposed:
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >>
> http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/apr/22/pruitt-igoe-high-rise-urban-america-history-cities
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >> And the earlier city which surrounds the project (which was
> not
> >>> >> >>> >> the
> >>> >> >>> >> product of anarchy in any meaningful sense - except as
> opposed
> >>> >> >>> >> to
> >>> >> >>> >> Pruitt-Igoe)  in the photo is what she championed.
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >> David Morris
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 3:48 PM, Mark Kohut
> >>> >> >>> >> <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
> >>> >> >>> >> wrote:
> >>> >> >>> >> David,
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >> There is a deep strain of human-sized, freedom-embracing,
> >>> >> >>> >> non-top-down, self-organizing activities which
> >>> >> >>> >> have been written about even here as 'anarchism'. See the
> >>> >> >>> >> anarchist
> >>> >> >>> >> dance in Lot 49.
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >> Jacob's vision of city life has been seen under these
> concepts
> >>> >> >>> >> by
> >>> >> >>> >> many
> >>> >> >>> >> for a long time: Here is the estimable
> >>> >> >>> >> Richard Sennet for one: As Jane Jacobs points out, high
> >>> >> >>> >> concentration
> >>> >> >>> >> of dwelling units per acre and high land coverage are
> essential
> >>> >> >>> >> to
> >>> >> >>> >> the ...
> >>> >> >>> >> 1969), and the appreciative review by Richard Sennett, “The
> >>> >> >>> >> Anarchism of
> >>> >> >>> >> Jane Jacobs,” New York Review of Books ...
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >> There are scores more which I am not hunting down. it is her
> >>> >> >>> >> vision
> >>> >> >>> >> of
> >>> >> >>> >> urban living, and parts of mumford's which might relate
> >>> >> >>> >> them to Pynchon and are what I was referring to.
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 4:12 PM, David Morris
> >>> >> >>> >> <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> >>> >> >>> >> wrote:
> >>> >> >>> >> Jane Jacobs was in no way connected to anarchism, but, like
> >>> >> >>> >> Mumford,
> >>> >> >>> >> she was a proponent of urban living, as are most architects
> just
> >>> >> >>> >> about
> >>> >> >>> >> anywhere...
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >> David Morris
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Mark Kohut
> >>> >> >>> >> <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
> >>> >> >>> >> wrote:
> >>> >> >>> >> about urban theorist Jane Jacobs. Read up and see that
> >>> >> >>> >> she shared many notions with Lewis Mumford, discussed a lot
> >>> >> >>> >> here on the List. Her ideas of a vibrant diverse 'anarchic'
> >>> >> >>> >> street
> >>> >> >>> >> and storefront life might dovetail with many of P's meanings
> of
> >>> >> >>> >> anarchic goodness.
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >> Remember that she lived in Greenwich Village, near Barthelme
> >>> >> >>> >> (therefore
> >>> >> >>> >> Pynchon) I believe and Grace Paley and her husband
> >>> >> >>> >> most of the time TRP was supposed to have
> >>> >> >>> >> lived there. I think.
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >> Everything connects.
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >>
> >>> >> >>> >
> >>> >> >>> > -
> >>> >> >>> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >>> >> >>> -
> >>> >> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> -
> >>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> -
> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >>
> >>
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>

-- 
www.innergroovemusic.com
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