Was Pynchon influenced by Leary, R.A. Wilson?

Tue Aug 29 08:49:21 CDT 2017

Pynchon would fucking adore me.  And I don't even read Playboy.

On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 7:38 AM, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>
wrote:

> For the record, I think RAWilson and TRPynchon would have gotten along
> famously, and I am not prepared to posit that such a meeting of the
> minds never occurred, either. Wilson did edit Playboy during its
> fiction-publishing heyday, after all.
>
> Jerky
>
> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> > Strong dfferences always welcome, thanks for clearing up your intentions.
> >
> >> On Aug 28, 2017, at 2:19 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I did not mean to display anger, so I apologize if I did--was....
> >>
> >> I saw it as a rhetorical device to display some firm
> differences...(since I've been agreeing with you a lot lately.)
> >>
> >> Smile (or you don't have to.
> >>
> >> yeah, I don't know how to use wtf. I think it is just like asking a
> hard question but it is saying "what the fuck", not a pleasant phrase.
> >>
> >> Yes, I did speak offensively and I do apologize and will learn better
> for next time, I hope.......
> >>
> >> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 1:25 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> >> I was not really asserting anything, just seeing potential cross
> fertilization and asking what others thought. No need for anger.  I agree
> as does Wilson that Pynchon is one of the great artists of our time and
> simply in a different class as a writer, but he is also eclectic and
> omnivorous in his reading.
> >>   Leary’s impact on the culture was far greater than Wilson, and while
> I was in the past put off by his personality, I find his writing and ideas
> are more measured and intelligently provocative than he was given credit
> for. He was interested in the evolution of consciousness and was in the
> middle of a cultural revolution that held great promise. We need such a
> revolution again and I think that is what drew my interest to these writers
> that I overlooked at the time. I was more influenced at the time by Huxley,
> Bucky Fuller, Alan Watts and Marshall Mcluhan so it is interesting to see
> how powerful was their influence on Leary and Wison. Both Wilson and Leary
> cite many scientists, journalists, and other writers so the references are
> as interesting to me as Wilson or Leary’s ideas.
> >>   As to whether P smoked pot or took psychedelics I don’t think I am
> alone in thinking pot for sure and entheogens probably. He certainly
> understood the role they played in a way that suggests first hand
> experience. But that is not proof.
> >>
> >> > On Aug 28, 2017, at 4:52 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Your " clearly" can't even be proven from what we know and, of
> course, what most want to believe. And as if his habit of making
> "cross-disciplinary connections"--wtf is THAT in him besides
> metaphors-making genius, praised from Aristotle on as the highest kind of "
> intelligence".
> >> >
> >> > All of the annotating and criticism exploring P's creative sources
> and jackshit re these guys.
> >> > He is too smart for all of them. Which is one reason THEY admire him.
> >> >
> >> > Wtf is that list in your post, from " music scale" to "control"?
> Seems to me like a"junior-grade Pynchon" list satirizing literary criticism.
> >> >
> >> > "Junior-grade Pynchon" per that commenter means it is effectively a
> joke, bad Pynchon parody.  Or else like Shakespeare retold for kids.
> >> >
> >> > A--and, I think you've got the dark web in BE about as
> wrong--although again his ambiguous depth of symbolic use is not easily
> summarized--as can be.
> >> >
> >> > Sent from my iPad
> >> >
> >> >> On Aug 28, 2017, at 12:33 AM, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> People often consider Wilson and Shea's The Illuminatus Trilogy to be
> >> >> junior-grade Pynchon, as in the link below, where one commenter
> >> >> describes it as "Gravity's Rainbow with training wheels".
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.librarything.com/topic/32913
> >> >>
> >> >>> On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 11:18 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
> wrote:
> >> >>> I have been reading Robert Anton Wilson’s Cosmic Trigger( 1 and 3)
> and am now starting into some Leary writing, which I found one of the more
> interesting parts of the Trigger books. Leary was more scientific than he
> is credited with, though clearly was left in the lurch by the outlawing of
> the intriguing chemistry brain interaction  which is one of the most
> fascinating in nature’s pharmacy and deserves open scientific, therapeutic
> and artistic inquiry.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Clearly P experimented with the same substances and has the same
> habit of making cross disciplinary connections as Leary and Wilson: music
> scale, male female electro chemistry, poetry as code, alchemy, tarot,
> communication accross time, psychology-science-political power
> games-control vs. freedom. Both use humor in powerful ways, and Wilson read
> and admired P and Joyce enormously. The main philosophic difference seems
> to be along the lines of pessimism/ optimism for the human condition.
> Leary/Wison see the potential to break non-functional conditioning whereas
> P sees those habits as more pervasive and operating on dangerous feedback
> loops. For P redemption/liberation/clarity is rare and individual with
> little impact on the macrocosm. On the other hand, there is an arc of
> movement toward optimism since GR.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> At the end of bleeding edge we are dropped off in a dangerous world
> made worse by the police state approach to IT , but with a nodding
> invitation of a departure into the  Deep web as an outpost of free
> exchange, ghosts and new games. The internet and virtual reality were
> intriguing frontiers to Leary/Wilson also.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Any thoughts on a Leary, Pynchon, Wilson connection
> >> >>>
> >> >>> -
> >> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >> >> -
> >> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> >> > -
> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list
> >>
> >> -
> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >>
> >>
> >
> > -
> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
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