Grace again. Misc.

[Paul Mackin]

Good point.  Augustine believed the two work together.  Calvin discounted
free will entirely.  When it came to avoiding sin and damnation, that is.

On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 8:08 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:

> More accurately, Free Will is the rival of Grace, not its opposite.
>
> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 6:58 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In Calvinism and other religious traditions, grace gets earned--or
>> shown-- by human free will choices.
>>
>> if grace is not earned or shown-- by free will human choices, then grace
>> as Pynchon uses it, is unearned, totally unexpected (by Lew and in the
>> text) and is somehow a function of the cosmos. Chance or otherwise. No?
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 7:41 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> If Free Will replaces Grace, then it is it's equal, not its opposite.
>>>
>>> David Morris
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 5:27 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Now THAT'S an answer I did not expect---nor really know (although I
>>>> know some of that shit from that tradition).
>>>> Another theologian rendered into the dustbin of churchyards because of
>>>> Augustine's dominance.
>>>>
>>>> A heretic, P's tradition. One might say a theological preterite,
>>>> analogously speaking? As Bailey alludes, and Morris fills in:
>>>> a kind of theological shlemiel, maybe? Profane Pelagius.
>>>>
>>>> I'm going to suggest that as Pynchon transformed the concept of Grace
>>>> within the religious tradition, for him
>>>> in the fiction, it became like "the free will" of the cosmos---which
>>>> might all be predetermined, of course, per your observation---
>>>> when Lew experienced it unexpectedly.....when Against the Day ends....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In the way back, Pelagius (St Agustine's antagonist) thought we didn't
>>>>> need Grace--that our free will was sufficient to overcome sin. So, the
>>>>> opposite of Grace is Free Will.  Which science now says doesn't exist.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 4:03 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> From the wayback (but eternal?) religious uses, the opposite might be
>>>>>> damnation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What might it be in Pynchon's transformation of the meaning of the
>>>>>> word?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Jochen Stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are the native speaker, Mark, but I would say it's bullshit if
>>>>>>> you don't provide context. What kind of grace? You have disgrace, you have
>>>>>>> clumsiness, I'm sure you have more opposites of grace.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2017-07-29 21:11 GMT+02:00 Erik T. Burns <eburns at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I suggest "trump"
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>> From: Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: ‎7/‎29/‎2017 20:06
>>>>>>>> To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Grace again. Misc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gracelessness is an absence of grace, but the English language
>>>>>>>> lacks a word for the opposite of grace.--Cass Sunstein, very
>>>>>>>> recent essay.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
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