Grace again. Misc.

[David Morris]

Rivals often work together for great show!

David Morris

On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 9:36 AM Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com> wrote:

> Good point.  Augustine believed the two work together.  Calvin discounted
> free will entirely.  When it came to avoiding sin and damnation, that is.
>
> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 8:08 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> More accurately, Free Will is the rival of Grace, not its opposite.
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 6:58 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In Calvinism and other religious traditions, grace gets earned--or
>>> shown-- by human free will choices.
>>>
>>> if grace is not earned or shown-- by free will human choices, then grace
>>> as Pynchon uses it, is unearned, totally unexpected (by Lew and in the
>>> text) and is somehow a function of the cosmos. Chance or otherwise. No?
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 7:41 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If Free Will replaces Grace, then it is it's equal, not its opposite.
>>>>
>>>> David Morris
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 5:27 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Now THAT'S an answer I did not expect---nor really know (although I
>>>>> know some of that shit from that tradition).
>>>>> Another theologian rendered into the dustbin of churchyards because of
>>>>> Augustine's dominance.
>>>>>
>>>>> A heretic, P's tradition. One might say a theological preterite,
>>>>> analogously speaking? As Bailey alludes, and Morris fills in:
>>>>> a kind of theological shlemiel, maybe? Profane Pelagius.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm going to suggest that as Pynchon transformed the concept of Grace
>>>>> within the religious tradition, for him
>>>>> in the fiction, it became like "the free will" of the cosmos---which
>>>>> might all be predetermined, of course, per your observation---
>>>>> when Lew experienced it unexpectedly.....when Against the Day ends....
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In the way back, Pelagius (St Agustine's antagonist) thought we
>>>>>> didn't need Grace--that our free will was sufficient to overcome sin. So,
>>>>>> the opposite of Grace is Free Will.  Which science now says doesn't exist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 4:03 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From the wayback (but eternal?) religious uses, the opposite might
>>>>>>> be damnation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What might it be in Pynchon's transformation of the meaning of the
>>>>>>> word?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Jochen Stremmel <
>>>>>>> jstremmel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You are the native speaker, Mark, but I would say it's bullshit if
>>>>>>>> you don't provide context. What kind of grace? You have disgrace, you have
>>>>>>>> clumsiness, I'm sure you have more opposites of grace.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2017-07-29 21:11 GMT+02:00 Erik T. Burns <eburns at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I suggest "trump"
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> From: Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: ‎7/‎29/‎2017 20:06
>>>>>>>>> To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Grace again. Misc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gracelessness is an absence of grace, but the English language
>>>>>>>>> lacks a word for the opposite of grace.--Cass Sunstein, very
>>>>>>>>> recent essay.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>
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