Grace again. Misc.

[Mark Kohut]

"I think he's got it".

"I think I've got it."

On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 11:19 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:

> Rivals often work together for great show!
>
> David Morris
>
> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 9:36 AM Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Good point.  Augustine believed the two work together.  Calvin discounted
>> free will entirely.  When it came to avoiding sin and damnation, that is.
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 8:08 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> More accurately, Free Will is the rival of Grace, not its opposite.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 6:58 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In Calvinism and other religious traditions, grace gets earned--or
>>>> shown-- by human free will choices.
>>>>
>>>> if grace is not earned or shown-- by free will human choices, then
>>>> grace as Pynchon uses it, is unearned, totally unexpected (by Lew and in
>>>> the text) and is somehow a function of the cosmos. Chance or otherwise. No?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 7:41 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If Free Will replaces Grace, then it is it's equal, not its opposite.
>>>>>
>>>>> David Morris
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 5:27 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Now THAT'S an answer I did not expect---nor really know (although I
>>>>>> know some of that shit from that tradition).
>>>>>> Another theologian rendered into the dustbin of churchyards because
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> Augustine's dominance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A heretic, P's tradition. One might say a theological preterite,
>>>>>> analogously speaking? As Bailey alludes, and Morris fills in:
>>>>>> a kind of theological shlemiel, maybe? Profane Pelagius.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm going to suggest that as Pynchon transformed the concept of Grace
>>>>>> within the religious tradition, for him
>>>>>> in the fiction, it became like "the free will" of the cosmos---which
>>>>>> might all be predetermined, of course, per your observation---
>>>>>> when Lew experienced it unexpectedly.....when Against the Day ends....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the way back, Pelagius (St Agustine's antagonist) thought we
>>>>>>> didn't need Grace--that our free will was sufficient to overcome sin. So,
>>>>>>> the opposite of Grace is Free Will.  Which science now says doesn't exist.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 4:03 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From the wayback (but eternal?) religious uses, the opposite might
>>>>>>>> be damnation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What might it be in Pynchon's transformation of the meaning of the
>>>>>>>> word?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Jochen Stremmel <
>>>>>>>> jstremmel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You are the native speaker, Mark, but I would say it's bullshit if
>>>>>>>>> you don't provide context. What kind of grace? You have disgrace, you have
>>>>>>>>> clumsiness, I'm sure you have more opposites of grace.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2017-07-29 21:11 GMT+02:00 Erik T. Burns <eburns at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I suggest "trump"
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> From: Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: ‎7/‎29/‎2017 20:06
>>>>>>>>>> To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Grace again. Misc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Gracelessness is an absence of grace, but the English language
>>>>>>>>>> lacks a word for the opposite of grace.--Cass Sunstein, very
>>>>>>>>>> recent essay.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>
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