RIP Chuck Berry

Tue Mar 21 12:11:24 CDT 2017

I must say I find the whole discussion ironic to say the least.  First, you must always separate the art from the artist.  Second, have you people even read Gravity's Rainbow?  Brigadier Ernest Pudding. Hello.  Miklos Thanatz. Hello.  Slothrop's pedophilic sex with Bianca. Hello.  You wouldn't or shouldn't be on this listserv if you don't recognize the artistic value in what Pynchon is doing there.  Yet you are upset over allegations about indiscretions in the life of Chuck Berry?  I see a performance like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ROwVrF0Ceg and I am just in awe of the artistry.  If you choose not to mourn the man, so be it, but you must mourn the passing of the art.

From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of David Morris
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 10:22 AM
To: Jochen Stremmel; Mark Thibodeau
Cc: Jemmy Bloocher; Jesse Gooch; Pynchon Mailing List; Toby Levy
Subject: Re: RIP Chuck Berry

I also agree with Mark.

On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 9:14 AM Jochen Stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com<mailto:jstremmel at gmail.com>> wrote:
I'm with Mark on this one.

2017-03-21 15:02 GMT+01:00 Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com<mailto:jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>>:
So, basically, by this standard, world history previous to 1935 was
populated pretty much entirely by monsters, perverts, pedophiles, and
genociders.

Personally, I think it's more constructive to take a slightly elastic
view, depending on the variables.

MT

On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 6:07 AM, Jemmy Bloocher <jbloocher at gmail.com<mailto:jbloocher at gmail.com>> wrote:
> I'm with Jesse on this one.
>
> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 2:35 AM, Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com<mailto:jlgooch at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I don't really see what her being a prostitute has to do with it.  She
>> could be a cannibal who fights dogs when she isn't busy burning churches,
>> and she would still be a child.  If a man sleeps with a prostitute and it
>> happens to be a child, or if he has sex with a child and it is used against
>> him by an inherently racist system, he is still having sex with a child.
>> It's not unfair that he went to jail for it, it's unfair that others should
>> have and didn't because they didn't share his status or skin color.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Toby Levy <tobyglevy at gmail.com<mailto:tobyglevy at gmail.com>>
>> Date: Monday, March 20, 2017 at 3:46 PM
>> To: Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com<mailto:jlgooch at hotmail.com>>
>> Subject: Re: RIP Chuck Berry
>>
>>
>>
>> The 14 year old girl was a prostitute. After the first mistrial she was
>> arrested in another city for prostitution. Who knows what really happened 50
>> years ago, but the charge of bringing a minor across state lines to have sex
>> was brought to show an uppity Chuck Berry where he stood in society, not to
>> protect the morals of the girl.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 9:13 AM, Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com<mailto:jlgooch at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Did he not have sex with that girl?  Seems like there are several other
>> articles that said he did.  I read a few before posting anything about it to
>> make sure I wasn't misremembering something.  I don't doubt for a second
>> that the prosecution was aided by him being a black man, if it had it been
>> Elvis, there would have been no jail time.  Jerry Lee Lewis caught a lot of
>> flack, but never actually went to jail for his child-bride either.  Doesn't
>> mean he wasn't having sex with that girl though.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Toby Levy <tobyglevy at gmail.com<mailto:tobyglevy at gmail.com>>
>> Date: Monday, March 20, 2017 at 8:44 AM
>> To: Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com<mailto:jlgooch at hotmail.com>>
>> Subject: Re: RIP Chuck Berry
>>
>>
>>
>> The only reason he went to jail for violating the Mann act was that he was
>> black:
>>
>>
>> http://heavy.com/entertainment/2017/03/chuck-berry-why-did-go-to-prison-jail-sentence-in-1960s-violate-mann-act-prostitution-tax-evasion/
>>
>> And the bathroom videotaping was a stupid thing to do but hardly rises to
>> the charge of pedophilia.
>>
>> He was a great creative artist in the 1950s. He was not a great human
>> being. But not a reprehensible villain.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 1:58 AM, Jesse Gooch <jlgooch at hotmail.com<mailto:jlgooch at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I was in prison with some child molesters that could paint beautiful
>> paintings, but they were pedophiles, not artists. I don't disagree that
>> Chuck Berry was a great musician.  He was incredibly talented and
>> influential, but I feel like taping women while they shit in his restaurant,
>> and having sex with 14-year-old girls, negates most of what a person does.
>> I'm weird like that.
>>
>>
>> On 3/20/17, 1:47 AM, "owner-pynchon-l at waste.org<mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org> on behalf of Thomas
>> Eckhardt" <owner-pynchon-l at waste.org<mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org> on behalf of
>> thomas.eckhardt at uni-bonn.de<mailto:thomas.eckhardt at uni-bonn.de>> wrote:
>>
>>     Am 20.03.2017 um 03:33 schrieb Jesse Gooch:
>>
>>     > Yeah, and after doing all of that travelling he got wealthy enough
>> to secretly videotape women going to the bathroom.  Kind of a scumbag.
>>
>>     Yes. Also a great artist.
>>     -
>>     Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
-
Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://waste.org/pipermail/pynchon-l/attachments/20170321/faea61c0/attachment.html>