Need to hear what some smart people have to say about this.

Sun Oct 29 17:17:54 CDT 2017

Laura,

Your post was extremely emotive, and was a scatter-gun of topics.

I hesitate to wade in because you enveigh Jewish victim hood as an argument
to both discount and then double down your complaints in relation to Jewish
relative Black Lives Matter media attention.  OK, I'm weighing in.

Your post was long, so I'm not addressing it all.  I think that when one
sees a swastika, the Holocaust immediately comes to mind, thus the
Alt-Right recent yuppies try to wipe that past by hiding the  swastika.
But Bannon has exposed their game to everyone.  I think the Confederate
flag is also gaining association with the swastika.

I think we all owe Trump a cosmic favor for bringing this toxic boil to a
head, as much as I despise him.

David Morris

On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 9:28 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yeah, laura, me too...
>
> Proud to have been called philosemitic among friends in my career, I do
> see that anti-semitism around too. I grew up with it around me in
> Pittsburgh. One of my shames about it, I won't put down here since,
>
> such confession here would only be showing off in reverse.
>
> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 10:19 AM, Arthur Fuller <fuller.artful at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Laura,You are a very smart woman and I hope to converse with you many
>> times in the future. Wow. I've just re-read your mail for the third timse,
>> an remain impressed and moved,.
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 7:48 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Laura,
>>>
>>> Your post was nuanced, but the US media always favors  Israel's Right
>>> Wing.  US religious wing nuts are theologically invested in the conversion
>>> of Isreal.  It is their Camelot.  God blast them!
>>>
>>> David Morris
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 5:58 PM Laura Kelber <laurakelber at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is a painful topic for me. I loathe the right-wing militaristic
>>>> Zionistic wing of Jewish identity. I come from the communist and/or
>>>> politically progressive, secular strain that helped shape the intellectual
>>>> life of NYC when I was growing up in the 60s. Now it's the rightwing
>>>> Orthodox and Hasidic Jews that dominate the Jewish community. Where the
>>>> hell did all the secular, progressive Jews go?!
>>>>
>>>> But much as I loathe both the American and Israeli strains of Zionism,
>>>> I'm hypersensitive to the antisemitism that simmers below the surface of a
>>>> lot of so-called progressive groups and individuals. A failure to recognize
>>>> and protest the antisemitism of the alt-right and white supremacists, for
>>>> example. A willingness to buy into the "rich Jewish banker" and
>>>> "Jewish-controlled media" stereotypes. Hell, I buy into some of those
>>>> stereotypes myself, sometimes. But I'm allowed to, because I'm Jewish.
>>>> Non-Jews, proceed with caution! I don't need a disclaimer about how your
>>>> best friend is Jewish, but I do need to hear an acknowledgement that
>>>> antisemitism exists and that Jews of any ideology have a right to be
>>>> paranoid about it.
>>>>
>>>> Even though antisemitic signs were prominently displayed in Charlotte,
>>>> VA, none of the knee jerk lefty emails I got mentioned antisemitism. It
>>>> just isn't sexy to decry antisemitism. Look, I can understand that. Black
>>>> people are beaten, murdered and incarcerated all over this country every
>>>> fucking day. That's not happening to Jews.
>>>>
>>>> But there is and always has been an antisemitic strain in this country,
>>>> and, perhaps stoked by the internet, it's become particularly virulent
>>>> lately. It was ever-present in the construction industry when I worked
>>>> there in the 80s and 90s. Job sites were frequently racially and ethnically
>>>> segregated, and I was often placed in the "Jew crew." Not uncommon for us
>>>> to bear the brunt of being "tightwad Jews" or, in my case, a "Jewess cunt."
>>>> "Hey, you know who the world's biggest cunt is? Hitler, 'cause he couldn't
>>>> even finish the job!" And so on.
>>>>
>>>> Just recently made the mistake of reading the comments on a mainstream
>>>> news story about Weinstein. The comments started in on the "typical Jewish"
>>>> behavior of that trio - Weinstein, Polanski and Woody Allen, then on to how
>>>> they were a disgrace to the white race, and finally, to an argument about
>>>> whether Jews could even be considered white.
>>>>
>>>> So, yeah, it's obnoxious when anyone who's legitimately outraged by
>>>> Israel's racist/militaristic actions gets branded an antisemite. But it
>>>> would be nice if those same anti-zionists expressed a little dismay over
>>>> the seething hatred of Jews that so many non-Jews seem to foster. Because
>>>> it's pretty disturbing.
>>>>
>>>> Laura
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 28, 2017 4:41 PM, "da kid" <peterock86 at live.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> *From:* da kid <peterock86 at live.com>
>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2017 8:05:33 AM
>>>>> *To:* Mark Thibodeau
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: Need to hear what some smart people have to say about
>>>>> this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Im not that smart but I think it is really really really sad that
>>>>> people feel they have to write a paragraph that attempts to prove they
>>>>> don't hate Jews before they can criticize Israel. I am also what you call a
>>>>> philo-semite but Israel's treatment of Palestine is abhorrent. The recent
>>>>> hubbub about Hebron, which is in Palestine, not being called Israeli is
>>>>> another recent example of false "anti-Semitism" accusations being thrown
>>>>> about. There is definitely a rich and powerful right wing pro Israeli lobby
>>>>> in America. That's not antiSemitic to say is it?
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> *From:* owner-pynchon-l at waste.org <owner-pynchon-l at waste.org> on
>>>>> behalf of Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>
>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2017 3:52:59 AM
>>>>> *To:* pynchon -l
>>>>> *Subject:* Need to hear what some smart people have to say about this.
>>>>>
>>>>> First things first... and I hate that I have to state this up front
>>>>> (but considering the subject matter, I feel that I must)... I am not an
>>>>> anti-Semite. In fact, if anything, I'm a Judeophile, or philo-Semite. Many
>>>>> of my heroes are Jews. I think Jewish women are among the world's must
>>>>> beautiful. I have many Jewish friends, some of whom are among my closest
>>>>> and most beloved. In short, I am no Jew-hater.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I'm also a huge fan or the musician Roger Waters. A lifelong
>>>>> admirer of both his music and his obvious sincere, passionately held
>>>>> beliefs. Lately, I've noticed a significant uptick in attacks on Waters
>>>>> from pro-Israeli news outlets. This week, I learned that there is actually
>>>>> an entire documentary film that's been shot, apparently with the sole
>>>>> objective of smearing him as an anti-Semite.
>>>>>
>>>>> While Waters is definitely an opponent of the current regime in
>>>>> Israel, and an advocate for Palestinian rights up to and including lending
>>>>> his support to the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement, I also
>>>>> have seen a lot of accusations made against him with little to zero
>>>>> supporting evidence (video, audio, etc). And I definitely think the attacks
>>>>> on him have taken on a dangerously aggressive tone.
>>>>>
>>>>> And then, today, I ran across this article...
>>>>>
>>>>> *https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.819132?v=448801475EBF52877C3C6DDD9BA51DFF
>>>>> <https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.819132?v=448801475EBF52877C3C6DDD9BA51DFF>*
>>>>>
>>>>> My first compulsion was to check with Snopes, even though the original
>>>>> article is from an Israeli paper, just to see if maybe I'd fallen for an
>>>>> elaborate prank. There I find...
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.snopes.com/texas-harvey-israel/
>>>>>
>>>>> And as I read, my blood runs a little bit cold.
>>>>>
>>>>> So I guess my question to you folks here is...
>>>>>
>>>>> What the fuck is going on here? And in what universe does anyone think
>>>>> denying aid to victims of natural disasters unless they pledge never to
>>>>> take part in the BDS movement isn't going to backfire spectacularly?
>>>>>
>>>>> Jerky
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Virus-free.
>>>>> www.avg.com
>>>>> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>>>>> <#m_5879358513889333536_m_-1214554750224698014_m_1226043763756275245_m_-1617203134040161763_m_-465245055819979829_m_521546189736007454_m_-2142130621856274249_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Arthur
>>
>>
>
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