Drugless Paths to the Mystical Experience

[David Morris]

Rich,

If you were so inclined, this might make a great short story.

David Morris

On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 5:38 PM rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:

> all this talk reminds me of the microdosing movement--what folly. can we
> escape, mother? is she too part of the corporate swill? it would seem.
> entangled in your own dreams as the song goes. but as 70s pathetic as it
> was before, now it's just insolent.
> who can expect to nudge a mystical experience? after a while a brief
> glimpse of a dark red cardinal, how can any drug compare to that? drugs are
> a tool, yes. but the self life is short.
> i once had a mystical experience. ive been told we can only expect a
> couple in a lifetime. i had an image in my head, mary as mother of doves
> (fairly standard icongraphy), but I had this picture of her doves in her
> hand around our head by her feet, a ring of them. i happened to be walking
> to class at Pratt Institute one day about 25 yrs ago around that time, head
> down, it was almost like a nagging thing but in a good way. anyway i get to
> the campus crossing the lawn with that in my mind and i looked up for no
> apparent reason and there it was: a homeless woman in a dirty ragged
> overcoat feeding pigeons from her hand around her head by her feet, a ring
> of them. it was only a split second moment but at that moment in that
> instance my heart i knew that was mary. and then it was gone. im not sure i
> was too mindful in class that day. and in the explanation in words it's
> just impossible to describe. i may have mentioned this already here. sure,
> maybe a coincidence, brain chemistry, suggestion, but like love it felt
> some sort of confirmation, something I knew that couldnt put into words but
> knew, something powerful, was in the world. i wasnt particularly religious
> mind you, but it felt as if i was hit with something between the eyes a
> beam and for that moment i was somewhere (and someone) else. and if i had
> to put into words it was precious. and it wasnt the religious connotation
> though that helped I suppose. it was simply what it was. something behind
> the fear, the veil of our existence and it was comforting even in only a
> glimpse.
>
> rich
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 4:34 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Another thought:  Drugs used for mystical insight might be like
>> oracle/divination vehicles, like I Ching or Taro or Runes, etc.  They can
>> provide insight, speaking directly to intuition, smack upside the head of
>> one hard to hear.  But even such physically benign vehicles should be
>> consulted sparingly, not used like the daily rag astrology fortune.
>> Otherwise they lose their numinousity.  The seeker's ability to see, if
>> used too often, becomes dulled.
>>
>> David Morris
>>
>
>> On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 2:51 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Like I said, if you want "mystical experiences," drugs are fine.  And
>> it's
>> > cool that they can facilitate breakthroughs from addictions or PTSD.
>> They
>> > can also cause lasting mental damage.
>> >
>> > But their immediate effects are fleeting for most, and if done too often
>> > they "lose you in situ," as the Tragically Hip's late Gord Donnie sang.
>> > Drugs are an unsustainable *spiritual* path.  So, in that sense at
>> least,
>> > they are less true.
>> >
>> > A sustained awakening, experiencing it as the new foundational real (as
>> > opposed to a carnival ride), requires quieting the mind so that the
>> depths
>> > can emerge in longer and longer cycles, and eventually become stable and
>> > true.
>> >
>> > David Morris
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 7:48 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> DMT is the most powerful hallucinatory chemical known and is
>> endogenously
>> >> produced. It is part of our own chemistry and the chemistry of
>> >> life/reality. I think there are probably advantages to non drug
>> approaches
>> >> to visionary states, the Buddhists certainly think so, and I doubt they
>> >> came to that view by completely rejecting the value of hallucinatory
>> >> visions. The Tibetan and Southeast Asian branches of Buddhist art
>> seems to
>> >> value such visions, including the sexual and terrifying. As an artist
>> and
>> >> seeker who has always had access to  internal and occasionally external
>> >> visionary experiences but is generally at home in day to day life and
>> never
>> >> struggled with psychotic states,  I feel no particular prejudice
>> against
>> >> plant medicines etc.  The idea that they are cheap or easy way to
>> spiritual
>> >> insight feels false. Hallucinatory substances are not easy, but
>> neither do
>> >> I see them as heroic. To me, spiritual heroism has to do with abiding
>> in
>> >> love and generosity, finding a way to serve in the human community with
>> >> grace. But humans get stuck and it seems that holotropic medicines can
>> >> address that problem when a person lacks the discipline or understading
>> >> that brings them to a practice like meditation or Jigong.  The
>> efficacy of
>> >> MDMA in treating PTSD is a good example, or the studies on psylocibin
>> in
>> >> helping free cancer patients from the fear of death.
>> >>
>> >> I think of hallucinatory visions as a means by which lots of
>> information
>> >> is compressed into a visual form and often into something rather like a
>> >> persona. The meaning does not immeditely reveal itself but requires a
>> kind
>> >> of dialog to unpack. In my experience fear inhibits that dialog and
>> >> love/fearlessness opens it and makes it valuable.The degree to which
>> we are
>> >> in dialog with other spirit beings of intelligences is open to debate
>> but I
>> >> personally think there really are many voices and there may be both
>> >> collective and individual intelligences , mediated by the same kind of
>> >> process that occurs in meditation, a cellular level dialog perhaps
>> having
>> >> to do with photon emissions from DNA as is suggested in Jeremy Narby’s
>> work
>> >> trying to connect ayahuasca shamanism to western scientific research(
>> The
>> >> Cosmic Serpent).
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > On May 31, 2018, at 7:17 PM, Ian Livingston <igrlivingston at gmail.com
>> >
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Ain't nowhere you can go with drugs that you can't get more genuinely
>> >> and
>> >> > enduringly to with mind training.
>> >> > Well, except for the hallucinations, and those are hallucinations,
>> not
>> >> > mystical experience.
>> >> >
>> >> > On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 12:32 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Smoke,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I think most teachers would disapprove of your seeking after
>> "mystical
>> >> >> experiences."  But maybe you just are using the wrong terms.  If
>> what
>> >> you
>> >> >> want is an "experience,"  why not just use drugs?  The "without
>> drugs"
>> >> part
>> >> >> implies you want something more authentic, and thus more "true?"
>> This
>> >> >> brings on the subject of "mystical."   Here's Webster:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Definition of mystical
>> >> >> 1a *: *having a spiritual meaning or reality that is neither
>> apparent
>> >> to
>> >> >> the senses nor obvious to the intelligence
>> >> >>
>> >> >>   - the mysticalfood of the sacrament
>> >> >>
>> >> >> b *: *involving or having the nature of an individual's direct
>> >> subjective
>> >> >> communion with God or ultimate reality
>> >> >>
>> >> >>   - the mysticalexperience of the Inner Light
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So the "mystical" implies a hidden realm/reality, and even more so
>> >> Ultimate
>> >> >> Reality.  This subject can and does go on forever, so I'll just
>> point
>> >> you
>> >> >> to a website that provides interviews with people from MANY
>> different
>> >> >> paths, many of whom have reached deep levels of spiritual
>> >> >> realization/experience.  Most of these paths agree that what most
>> >> people
>> >> >> experience is an illusion or veil that can be seen through into a
>> >> >> multi-faceted deeper reality.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Buddha at the Gas Pump:
>> >> >> https://batgap.com/
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I experienced a Kundalini awakening over six years ago, but I didn't
>> >> seek
>> >> >> it, nor did I know what it was at first (thank God for the
>> internet).
>> >> I
>> >> >> was just trying to get myself stable via meditation, having been
>> thrown
>> >> >> into emotional turmoil by the end of a 28 year marriage.  Then it
>> >> >> happened.  I didn't choose Kundalini.  It chose me.  I think that
>> is a
>> >> >> common aspect of many mystical experiences.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> David Morris
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 1:38 PM, Smoke Teff <smoketeff at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> The value of mushrooms has not depreciated in my mind (though many
>> of
>> >> my
>> >> >>> psychedelic experiences before doing an ayahuasca ceremony do seem
>> >> >> somewhat
>> >> >>> like a child tinkering with an elementary spiritual chemistry set,
>> >> >> without
>> >> >>> having even read the instructions).
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> But I’m interested in getting there mostly with the body
>> technology I
>> >> was
>> >> >>> given—want to cultivate a path I can replicate in most/any environs
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Fasting and sleep deprivation have been useful in the past seem
>> like
>> >> they
>> >> >>> involve unnecessary suffering, especially for a regular practice
>> that
>> >> >> will
>> >> >>> integrate with the rest of my life at this moment—and they
>> associate
>> >> too
>> >> >>> closely to me with other familiar ways of being
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Art gets me a decent part of the way sometimes
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I know at least Morris will have some kundalini to tell me about.
>> I’m
>> >> >>> thinking of things more along those lines.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Breathing, movement, meditation
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>> On May 31, 2018, at 12:31 PM, Glenn fuller <
>> >> glennfuller at sbcglobal.net>
>> >> >>> wrote:
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Fasting and Sleep Deprivation.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> On Thursday, May 31, 2018 10:20 AM, Allan Balliett <
>> >> >>> allan.balliett at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Convince yourself that ‘shrooms aren’t a drug!
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Are you reading the new Pollan?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> ALLAN in WV, where the patties are in bloom
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 12:59 PM Smoke Teff <smoketeff at gmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>> Soliciting recommendations and favorites
>> >> >>>>> --
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>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>> --
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>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
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>>
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>