Drugless Paths to the Mystical Experience

[rich]

well, i dont even have to come up with a title. drugless paths sounds fine
to me. maybe a poem which i think can only be sufficient for getting a
point of this type over. and anyway i'm too lazy and not enough nasty to be
a writer. there's a glut but i do wonder if these stories wouldn't be
written anyway despite social media and technology and the need to be
noticed, loved if you will. fame is the name of the game in this Oz country
we live in. we've seen behind the curtain a long time ago. god, who is ever
wanna grow up to be Michael Chabon. I dont mean to disparage. and anyway,
who wants the Catholic Church on their side? Do the Mary-ites still exist?
Something tells me we'd been better off worshipping her

but thanks for the suggestion anyway. i'll pbly post on Facebook
rich

On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 7:22 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:

> Rich,
>
> If you were so inclined, this might make a great short story.
>
> David Morris
>
> On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 5:38 PM rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> all this talk reminds me of the microdosing movement--what folly. can we
>> escape, mother? is she too part of the corporate swill? it would seem.
>> entangled in your own dreams as the song goes. but as 70s pathetic as it
>> was before, now it's just insolent.
>> who can expect to nudge a mystical experience? after a while a brief
>> glimpse of a dark red cardinal, how can any drug compare to that? drugs are
>> a tool, yes. but the self life is short.
>> i once had a mystical experience. ive been told we can only expect a
>> couple in a lifetime. i had an image in my head, mary as mother of doves
>> (fairly standard icongraphy), but I had this picture of her doves in her
>> hand around our head by her feet, a ring of them. i happened to be walking
>> to class at Pratt Institute one day about 25 yrs ago around that time, head
>> down, it was almost like a nagging thing but in a good way. anyway i get to
>> the campus crossing the lawn with that in my mind and i looked up for no
>> apparent reason and there it was: a homeless woman in a dirty ragged
>> overcoat feeding pigeons from her hand around her head by her feet, a ring
>> of them. it was only a split second moment but at that moment in that
>> instance my heart i knew that was mary. and then it was gone. im not sure i
>> was too mindful in class that day. and in the explanation in words it's
>> just impossible to describe. i may have mentioned this already here. sure,
>> maybe a coincidence, brain chemistry, suggestion, but like love it felt
>> some sort of confirmation, something I knew that couldnt put into words but
>> knew, something powerful, was in the world. i wasnt particularly religious
>> mind you, but it felt as if i was hit with something between the eyes a
>> beam and for that moment i was somewhere (and someone) else. and if i had
>> to put into words it was precious. and it wasnt the religious connotation
>> though that helped I suppose. it was simply what it was. something behind
>> the fear, the veil of our existence and it was comforting even in only a
>> glimpse.
>>
>> rich
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 4:34 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Another thought:  Drugs used for mystical insight might be like
>>> oracle/divination vehicles, like I Ching or Taro or Runes, etc.  They can
>>> provide insight, speaking directly to intuition, smack upside the head of
>>> one hard to hear.  But even such physically benign vehicles should be
>>> consulted sparingly, not used like the daily rag astrology fortune.
>>> Otherwise they lose their numinousity.  The seeker's ability to see, if
>>> used too often, becomes dulled.
>>>
>>> David Morris
>>>
>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 2:51 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Like I said, if you want "mystical experiences," drugs are fine.  And
>>> it's
>>> > cool that they can facilitate breakthroughs from addictions or PTSD.
>>> They
>>> > can also cause lasting mental damage.
>>> >
>>> > But their immediate effects are fleeting for most, and if done too
>>> often
>>> > they "lose you in situ," as the Tragically Hip's late Gord Donnie sang.
>>> > Drugs are an unsustainable *spiritual* path.  So, in that sense at
>>> least,
>>> > they are less true.
>>> >
>>> > A sustained awakening, experiencing it as the new foundational real (as
>>> > opposed to a carnival ride), requires quieting the mind so that the
>>> depths
>>> > can emerge in longer and longer cycles, and eventually become stable
>>> and
>>> > true.
>>> >
>>> > David Morris
>>> >
>>> > On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 7:48 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> DMT is the most powerful hallucinatory chemical known and is
>>> endogenously
>>> >> produced. It is part of our own chemistry and the chemistry of
>>> >> life/reality. I think there are probably advantages to non drug
>>> approaches
>>> >> to visionary states, the Buddhists certainly think so, and I doubt
>>> they
>>> >> came to that view by completely rejecting the value of hallucinatory
>>> >> visions. The Tibetan and Southeast Asian branches of Buddhist art
>>> seems to
>>> >> value such visions, including the sexual and terrifying. As an artist
>>> and
>>> >> seeker who has always had access to  internal and occasionally
>>> external
>>> >> visionary experiences but is generally at home in day to day life and
>>> never
>>> >> struggled with psychotic states,  I feel no particular prejudice
>>> against
>>> >> plant medicines etc.  The idea that they are cheap or easy way to
>>> spiritual
>>> >> insight feels false. Hallucinatory substances are not easy, but
>>> neither do
>>> >> I see them as heroic. To me, spiritual heroism has to do with abiding
>>> in
>>> >> love and generosity, finding a way to serve in the human community
>>> with
>>> >> grace. But humans get stuck and it seems that holotropic medicines can
>>> >> address that problem when a person lacks the discipline or
>>> understading
>>> >> that brings them to a practice like meditation or Jigong.  The
>>> efficacy of
>>> >> MDMA in treating PTSD is a good example, or the studies on psylocibin
>>> in
>>> >> helping free cancer patients from the fear of death.
>>> >>
>>> >> I think of hallucinatory visions as a means by which lots of
>>> information
>>> >> is compressed into a visual form and often into something rather like
>>> a
>>> >> persona. The meaning does not immeditely reveal itself but requires a
>>> kind
>>> >> of dialog to unpack. In my experience fear inhibits that dialog and
>>> >> love/fearlessness opens it and makes it valuable.The degree to which
>>> we are
>>> >> in dialog with other spirit beings of intelligences is open to debate
>>> but I
>>> >> personally think there really are many voices and there may be both
>>> >> collective and individual intelligences , mediated by the same kind of
>>> >> process that occurs in meditation, a cellular level dialog perhaps
>>> having
>>> >> to do with photon emissions from DNA as is suggested in Jeremy
>>> Narby’s work
>>> >> trying to connect ayahuasca shamanism to western scientific research(
>>> The
>>> >> Cosmic Serpent).
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> > On May 31, 2018, at 7:17 PM, Ian Livingston <
>>> igrlivingston at gmail.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Ain't nowhere you can go with drugs that you can't get more
>>> genuinely
>>> >> and
>>> >> > enduringly to with mind training.
>>> >> > Well, except for the hallucinations, and those are hallucinations,
>>> not
>>> >> > mystical experience.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 12:32 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> Smoke,
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> I think most teachers would disapprove of your seeking after
>>> "mystical
>>> >> >> experiences."  But maybe you just are using the wrong terms.  If
>>> what
>>> >> you
>>> >> >> want is an "experience,"  why not just use drugs?  The "without
>>> drugs"
>>> >> part
>>> >> >> implies you want something more authentic, and thus more "true?"
>>> This
>>> >> >> brings on the subject of "mystical."   Here's Webster:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Definition of mystical
>>> >> >> 1a *: *having a spiritual meaning or reality that is neither
>>> apparent
>>> >> to
>>> >> >> the senses nor obvious to the intelligence
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>   - the mysticalfood of the sacrament
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> b *: *involving or having the nature of an individual's direct
>>> >> subjective
>>> >> >> communion with God or ultimate reality
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>   - the mysticalexperience of the Inner Light
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> So the "mystical" implies a hidden realm/reality, and even more so
>>> >> Ultimate
>>> >> >> Reality.  This subject can and does go on forever, so I'll just
>>> point
>>> >> you
>>> >> >> to a website that provides interviews with people from MANY
>>> different
>>> >> >> paths, many of whom have reached deep levels of spiritual
>>> >> >> realization/experience.  Most of these paths agree that what most
>>> >> people
>>> >> >> experience is an illusion or veil that can be seen through into a
>>> >> >> multi-faceted deeper reality.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Buddha at the Gas Pump:
>>> >> >> https://batgap.com/
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> I experienced a Kundalini awakening over six years ago, but I
>>> didn't
>>> >> seek
>>> >> >> it, nor did I know what it was at first (thank God for the
>>> internet).
>>> >> I
>>> >> >> was just trying to get myself stable via meditation, having been
>>> thrown
>>> >> >> into emotional turmoil by the end of a 28 year marriage.  Then it
>>> >> >> happened.  I didn't choose Kundalini.  It chose me.  I think that
>>> is a
>>> >> >> common aspect of many mystical experiences.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> David Morris
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 1:38 PM, Smoke Teff <smoketeff at gmail.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>> The value of mushrooms has not depreciated in my mind (though
>>> many of
>>> >> my
>>> >> >>> psychedelic experiences before doing an ayahuasca ceremony do seem
>>> >> >> somewhat
>>> >> >>> like a child tinkering with an elementary spiritual chemistry set,
>>> >> >> without
>>> >> >>> having even read the instructions).
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> But I’m interested in getting there mostly with the body
>>> technology I
>>> >> was
>>> >> >>> given—want to cultivate a path I can replicate in most/any
>>> environs
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Fasting and sleep deprivation have been useful in the past seem
>>> like
>>> >> they
>>> >> >>> involve unnecessary suffering, especially for a regular practice
>>> that
>>> >> >> will
>>> >> >>> integrate with the rest of my life at this moment—and they
>>> associate
>>> >> too
>>> >> >>> closely to me with other familiar ways of being
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Art gets me a decent part of the way sometimes
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> I know at least Morris will have some kundalini to tell me about.
>>> I’m
>>> >> >>> thinking of things more along those lines.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Breathing, movement, meditation
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>> On May 31, 2018, at 12:31 PM, Glenn fuller <
>>> >> glennfuller at sbcglobal.net>
>>> >> >>> wrote:
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> Fasting and Sleep Deprivation.
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> On Thursday, May 31, 2018 10:20 AM, Allan Balliett <
>>> >> >>> allan.balliett at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> Convince yourself that ‘shrooms aren’t a drug!
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> Are you reading the new Pollan?
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> ALLAN in WV, where the patties are in bloom
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 12:59 PM Smoke Teff <smoketeff at gmail.com
>>> >
>>> >> >> wrote:
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>>> Soliciting recommendations and favorites
>>> >> >>>>> --
>>> >> >>>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>>>
>>> >> >>>> --
>>> >> >>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>>      Virus-free. www.avg.com
>>> >> >>> --
>>> >> >>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >> --
>>> >> >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>> >> >>
>>> >> > --
>>> >> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>> >>
>>> >
>>>
>> --
>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>>
>>