Drugless Paths to the Mystical Experience

[rich]

insert 'a simple mother' after worshipping her
sorry

On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 8:34 PM, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:

> well, i dont even have to come up with a title. drugless paths sounds fine
> to me. maybe a poem which i think can only be sufficient for getting a
> point of this type over. and anyway i'm too lazy and not enough nasty to be
> a writer. there's a glut but i do wonder if these stories wouldn't be
> written anyway despite social media and technology and the need to be
> noticed, loved if you will. fame is the name of the game in this Oz country
> we live in. we've seen behind the curtain a long time ago. god, who is ever
> wanna grow up to be Michael Chabon. I dont mean to disparage. and anyway,
> who wants the Catholic Church on their side? Do the Mary-ites still exist?
> Something tells me we'd been better off worshipping her
>
> but thanks for the suggestion anyway. i'll pbly post on Facebook
> rich
>
> On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 7:22 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Rich,
>>
>> If you were so inclined, this might make a great short story.
>>
>> David Morris
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 5:38 PM rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> all this talk reminds me of the microdosing movement--what folly. can we
>>> escape, mother? is she too part of the corporate swill? it would seem.
>>> entangled in your own dreams as the song goes. but as 70s pathetic as it
>>> was before, now it's just insolent.
>>> who can expect to nudge a mystical experience? after a while a brief
>>> glimpse of a dark red cardinal, how can any drug compare to that? drugs are
>>> a tool, yes. but the self life is short.
>>> i once had a mystical experience. ive been told we can only expect a
>>> couple in a lifetime. i had an image in my head, mary as mother of doves
>>> (fairly standard icongraphy), but I had this picture of her doves in her
>>> hand around our head by her feet, a ring of them. i happened to be walking
>>> to class at Pratt Institute one day about 25 yrs ago around that time, head
>>> down, it was almost like a nagging thing but in a good way. anyway i get to
>>> the campus crossing the lawn with that in my mind and i looked up for no
>>> apparent reason and there it was: a homeless woman in a dirty ragged
>>> overcoat feeding pigeons from her hand around her head by her feet, a ring
>>> of them. it was only a split second moment but at that moment in that
>>> instance my heart i knew that was mary. and then it was gone. im not sure i
>>> was too mindful in class that day. and in the explanation in words it's
>>> just impossible to describe. i may have mentioned this already here. sure,
>>> maybe a coincidence, brain chemistry, suggestion, but like love it felt
>>> some sort of confirmation, something I knew that couldnt put into words but
>>> knew, something powerful, was in the world. i wasnt particularly religious
>>> mind you, but it felt as if i was hit with something between the eyes a
>>> beam and for that moment i was somewhere (and someone) else. and if i had
>>> to put into words it was precious. and it wasnt the religious connotation
>>> though that helped I suppose. it was simply what it was. something behind
>>> the fear, the veil of our existence and it was comforting even in only a
>>> glimpse.
>>>
>>> rich
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 4:34 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Another thought:  Drugs used for mystical insight might be like
>>>> oracle/divination vehicles, like I Ching or Taro or Runes, etc.  They
>>>> can
>>>> provide insight, speaking directly to intuition, smack upside the head
>>>> of
>>>> one hard to hear.  But even such physically benign vehicles should be
>>>> consulted sparingly, not used like the daily rag astrology fortune.
>>>> Otherwise they lose their numinousity.  The seeker's ability to see, if
>>>> used too often, becomes dulled.
>>>>
>>>> David Morris
>>>>
>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 2:51 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Like I said, if you want "mystical experiences," drugs are fine.  And
>>>> it's
>>>> > cool that they can facilitate breakthroughs from addictions or PTSD.
>>>> They
>>>> > can also cause lasting mental damage.
>>>> >
>>>> > But their immediate effects are fleeting for most, and if done too
>>>> often
>>>> > they "lose you in situ," as the Tragically Hip's late Gord Donnie
>>>> sang.
>>>> > Drugs are an unsustainable *spiritual* path.  So, in that sense at
>>>> least,
>>>> > they are less true.
>>>> >
>>>> > A sustained awakening, experiencing it as the new foundational real
>>>> (as
>>>> > opposed to a carnival ride), requires quieting the mind so that the
>>>> depths
>>>> > can emerge in longer and longer cycles, and eventually become stable
>>>> and
>>>> > true.
>>>> >
>>>> > David Morris
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 7:48 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> DMT is the most powerful hallucinatory chemical known and is
>>>> endogenously
>>>> >> produced. It is part of our own chemistry and the chemistry of
>>>> >> life/reality. I think there are probably advantages to non drug
>>>> approaches
>>>> >> to visionary states, the Buddhists certainly think so, and I doubt
>>>> they
>>>> >> came to that view by completely rejecting the value of hallucinatory
>>>> >> visions. The Tibetan and Southeast Asian branches of Buddhist art
>>>> seems to
>>>> >> value such visions, including the sexual and terrifying. As an
>>>> artist and
>>>> >> seeker who has always had access to  internal and occasionally
>>>> external
>>>> >> visionary experiences but is generally at home in day to day life
>>>> and never
>>>> >> struggled with psychotic states,  I feel no particular prejudice
>>>> against
>>>> >> plant medicines etc.  The idea that they are cheap or easy way to
>>>> spiritual
>>>> >> insight feels false. Hallucinatory substances are not easy, but
>>>> neither do
>>>> >> I see them as heroic. To me, spiritual heroism has to do with
>>>> abiding in
>>>> >> love and generosity, finding a way to serve in the human community
>>>> with
>>>> >> grace. But humans get stuck and it seems that holotropic medicines
>>>> can
>>>> >> address that problem when a person lacks the discipline or
>>>> understading
>>>> >> that brings them to a practice like meditation or Jigong.  The
>>>> efficacy of
>>>> >> MDMA in treating PTSD is a good example, or the studies on
>>>> psylocibin in
>>>> >> helping free cancer patients from the fear of death.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I think of hallucinatory visions as a means by which lots of
>>>> information
>>>> >> is compressed into a visual form and often into something rather
>>>> like a
>>>> >> persona. The meaning does not immeditely reveal itself but requires
>>>> a kind
>>>> >> of dialog to unpack. In my experience fear inhibits that dialog and
>>>> >> love/fearlessness opens it and makes it valuable.The degree to which
>>>> we are
>>>> >> in dialog with other spirit beings of intelligences is open to
>>>> debate but I
>>>> >> personally think there really are many voices and there may be both
>>>> >> collective and individual intelligences , mediated by the same kind
>>>> of
>>>> >> process that occurs in meditation, a cellular level dialog perhaps
>>>> having
>>>> >> to do with photon emissions from DNA as is suggested in Jeremy
>>>> Narby’s work
>>>> >> trying to connect ayahuasca shamanism to western scientific
>>>> research( The
>>>> >> Cosmic Serpent).
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > On May 31, 2018, at 7:17 PM, Ian Livingston <
>>>> igrlivingston at gmail.com>
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Ain't nowhere you can go with drugs that you can't get more
>>>> genuinely
>>>> >> and
>>>> >> > enduringly to with mind training.
>>>> >> > Well, except for the hallucinations, and those are hallucinations,
>>>> not
>>>> >> > mystical experience.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 12:32 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com
>>>> >
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >> Smoke,
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> I think most teachers would disapprove of your seeking after
>>>> "mystical
>>>> >> >> experiences."  But maybe you just are using the wrong terms.  If
>>>> what
>>>> >> you
>>>> >> >> want is an "experience,"  why not just use drugs?  The "without
>>>> drugs"
>>>> >> part
>>>> >> >> implies you want something more authentic, and thus more "true?"
>>>> This
>>>> >> >> brings on the subject of "mystical."   Here's Webster:
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Definition of mystical
>>>> >> >> 1a *: *having a spiritual meaning or reality that is neither
>>>> apparent
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> >> the senses nor obvious to the intelligence
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>   - the mysticalfood of the sacrament
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> b *: *involving or having the nature of an individual's direct
>>>> >> subjective
>>>> >> >> communion with God or ultimate reality
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>   - the mysticalexperience of the Inner Light
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> So the "mystical" implies a hidden realm/reality, and even more so
>>>> >> Ultimate
>>>> >> >> Reality.  This subject can and does go on forever, so I'll just
>>>> point
>>>> >> you
>>>> >> >> to a website that provides interviews with people from MANY
>>>> different
>>>> >> >> paths, many of whom have reached deep levels of spiritual
>>>> >> >> realization/experience.  Most of these paths agree that what most
>>>> >> people
>>>> >> >> experience is an illusion or veil that can be seen through into a
>>>> >> >> multi-faceted deeper reality.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Buddha at the Gas Pump:
>>>> >> >> https://batgap.com/
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> I experienced a Kundalini awakening over six years ago, but I
>>>> didn't
>>>> >> seek
>>>> >> >> it, nor did I know what it was at first (thank God for the
>>>> internet).
>>>> >> I
>>>> >> >> was just trying to get myself stable via meditation, having been
>>>> thrown
>>>> >> >> into emotional turmoil by the end of a 28 year marriage.  Then it
>>>> >> >> happened.  I didn't choose Kundalini.  It chose me.  I think that
>>>> is a
>>>> >> >> common aspect of many mystical experiences.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> David Morris
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 1:38 PM, Smoke Teff <smoketeff at gmail.com>
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>> The value of mushrooms has not depreciated in my mind (though
>>>> many of
>>>> >> my
>>>> >> >>> psychedelic experiences before doing an ayahuasca ceremony do
>>>> seem
>>>> >> >> somewhat
>>>> >> >>> like a child tinkering with an elementary spiritual chemistry
>>>> set,
>>>> >> >> without
>>>> >> >>> having even read the instructions).
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> But I’m interested in getting there mostly with the body
>>>> technology I
>>>> >> was
>>>> >> >>> given—want to cultivate a path I can replicate in most/any
>>>> environs
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> Fasting and sleep deprivation have been useful in the past seem
>>>> like
>>>> >> they
>>>> >> >>> involve unnecessary suffering, especially for a regular practice
>>>> that
>>>> >> >> will
>>>> >> >>> integrate with the rest of my life at this moment—and they
>>>> associate
>>>> >> too
>>>> >> >>> closely to me with other familiar ways of being
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> Art gets me a decent part of the way sometimes
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> I know at least Morris will have some kundalini to tell me
>>>> about. I’m
>>>> >> >>> thinking of things more along those lines.
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> Breathing, movement, meditation
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>>> On May 31, 2018, at 12:31 PM, Glenn fuller <
>>>> >> glennfuller at sbcglobal.net>
>>>> >> >>> wrote:
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>> Fasting and Sleep Deprivation.
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>> On Thursday, May 31, 2018 10:20 AM, Allan Balliett <
>>>> >> >>> allan.balliett at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>> Convince yourself that ‘shrooms aren’t a drug!
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>> Are you reading the new Pollan?
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>> ALLAN in WV, where the patties are in bloom
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 12:59 PM Smoke Teff <
>>>> smoketeff at gmail.com>
>>>> >> >> wrote:
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>>> Soliciting recommendations and favorites
>>>> >> >>>>> --
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>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>>>
>>>> >> >>>> --
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>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>>
>>>> >> >>>>      Virus-free. www.avg.com
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>>>> >> >>>
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>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>> --
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>>>
>