Drugless Paths to the Mystical Experience

[Ian Livingston]

How times did Rumi write this poem? And what is the sound of two hands
clapping in separate time zones?

On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 5:36 PM, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:

> insert 'a simple mother' after worshipping her
> sorry
>
> On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 8:34 PM, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > well, i dont even have to come up with a title. drugless paths sounds
> fine
> > to me. maybe a poem which i think can only be sufficient for getting a
> > point of this type over. and anyway i'm too lazy and not enough nasty to
> be
> > a writer. there's a glut but i do wonder if these stories wouldn't be
> > written anyway despite social media and technology and the need to be
> > noticed, loved if you will. fame is the name of the game in this Oz
> country
> > we live in. we've seen behind the curtain a long time ago. god, who is
> ever
> > wanna grow up to be Michael Chabon. I dont mean to disparage. and anyway,
> > who wants the Catholic Church on their side? Do the Mary-ites still
> exist?
> > Something tells me we'd been better off worshipping her
> >
> > but thanks for the suggestion anyway. i'll pbly post on Facebook
> > rich
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 7:22 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Rich,
> >>
> >> If you were so inclined, this might make a great short story.
> >>
> >> David Morris
> >>
> >> On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 5:38 PM rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> all this talk reminds me of the microdosing movement--what folly. can
> we
> >>> escape, mother? is she too part of the corporate swill? it would seem.
> >>> entangled in your own dreams as the song goes. but as 70s pathetic as
> it
> >>> was before, now it's just insolent.
> >>> who can expect to nudge a mystical experience? after a while a brief
> >>> glimpse of a dark red cardinal, how can any drug compare to that?
> drugs are
> >>> a tool, yes. but the self life is short.
> >>> i once had a mystical experience. ive been told we can only expect a
> >>> couple in a lifetime. i had an image in my head, mary as mother of
> doves
> >>> (fairly standard icongraphy), but I had this picture of her doves in
> her
> >>> hand around our head by her feet, a ring of them. i happened to be
> walking
> >>> to class at Pratt Institute one day about 25 yrs ago around that time,
> head
> >>> down, it was almost like a nagging thing but in a good way. anyway i
> get to
> >>> the campus crossing the lawn with that in my mind and i looked up for
> no
> >>> apparent reason and there it was: a homeless woman in a dirty ragged
> >>> overcoat feeding pigeons from her hand around her head by her feet, a
> ring
> >>> of them. it was only a split second moment but at that moment in that
> >>> instance my heart i knew that was mary. and then it was gone. im not
> sure i
> >>> was too mindful in class that day. and in the explanation in words it's
> >>> just impossible to describe. i may have mentioned this already here.
> sure,
> >>> maybe a coincidence, brain chemistry, suggestion, but like love it felt
> >>> some sort of confirmation, something I knew that couldnt put into
> words but
> >>> knew, something powerful, was in the world. i wasnt particularly
> religious
> >>> mind you, but it felt as if i was hit with something between the eyes a
> >>> beam and for that moment i was somewhere (and someone) else. and if i
> had
> >>> to put into words it was precious. and it wasnt the religious
> connotation
> >>> though that helped I suppose. it was simply what it was. something
> behind
> >>> the fear, the veil of our existence and it was comforting even in only
> a
> >>> glimpse.
> >>>
> >>> rich
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 4:34 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Another thought:  Drugs used for mystical insight might be like
> >>>> oracle/divination vehicles, like I Ching or Taro or Runes, etc.  They
> >>>> can
> >>>> provide insight, speaking directly to intuition, smack upside the head
> >>>> of
> >>>> one hard to hear.  But even such physically benign vehicles should be
> >>>> consulted sparingly, not used like the daily rag astrology fortune.
> >>>> Otherwise they lose their numinousity.  The seeker's ability to see,
> if
> >>>> used too often, becomes dulled.
> >>>>
> >>>> David Morris
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 2:51 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> > Like I said, if you want "mystical experiences," drugs are fine.
> And
> >>>> it's
> >>>> > cool that they can facilitate breakthroughs from addictions or PTSD.
> >>>> They
> >>>> > can also cause lasting mental damage.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > But their immediate effects are fleeting for most, and if done too
> >>>> often
> >>>> > they "lose you in situ," as the Tragically Hip's late Gord Donnie
> >>>> sang.
> >>>> > Drugs are an unsustainable *spiritual* path.  So, in that sense at
> >>>> least,
> >>>> > they are less true.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > A sustained awakening, experiencing it as the new foundational real
> >>>> (as
> >>>> > opposed to a carnival ride), requires quieting the mind so that the
> >>>> depths
> >>>> > can emerge in longer and longer cycles, and eventually become stable
> >>>> and
> >>>> > true.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > David Morris
> >>>> >
> >>>> > On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 7:48 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
> wrote:
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> DMT is the most powerful hallucinatory chemical known and is
> >>>> endogenously
> >>>> >> produced. It is part of our own chemistry and the chemistry of
> >>>> >> life/reality. I think there are probably advantages to non drug
> >>>> approaches
> >>>> >> to visionary states, the Buddhists certainly think so, and I doubt
> >>>> they
> >>>> >> came to that view by completely rejecting the value of
> hallucinatory
> >>>> >> visions. The Tibetan and Southeast Asian branches of Buddhist art
> >>>> seems to
> >>>> >> value such visions, including the sexual and terrifying. As an
> >>>> artist and
> >>>> >> seeker who has always had access to  internal and occasionally
> >>>> external
> >>>> >> visionary experiences but is generally at home in day to day life
> >>>> and never
> >>>> >> struggled with psychotic states,  I feel no particular prejudice
> >>>> against
> >>>> >> plant medicines etc.  The idea that they are cheap or easy way to
> >>>> spiritual
> >>>> >> insight feels false. Hallucinatory substances are not easy, but
> >>>> neither do
> >>>> >> I see them as heroic. To me, spiritual heroism has to do with
> >>>> abiding in
> >>>> >> love and generosity, finding a way to serve in the human community
> >>>> with
> >>>> >> grace. But humans get stuck and it seems that holotropic medicines
> >>>> can
> >>>> >> address that problem when a person lacks the discipline or
> >>>> understading
> >>>> >> that brings them to a practice like meditation or Jigong.  The
> >>>> efficacy of
> >>>> >> MDMA in treating PTSD is a good example, or the studies on
> >>>> psylocibin in
> >>>> >> helping free cancer patients from the fear of death.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> I think of hallucinatory visions as a means by which lots of
> >>>> information
> >>>> >> is compressed into a visual form and often into something rather
> >>>> like a
> >>>> >> persona. The meaning does not immeditely reveal itself but requires
> >>>> a kind
> >>>> >> of dialog to unpack. In my experience fear inhibits that dialog and
> >>>> >> love/fearlessness opens it and makes it valuable.The degree to
> which
> >>>> we are
> >>>> >> in dialog with other spirit beings of intelligences is open to
> >>>> debate but I
> >>>> >> personally think there really are many voices and there may be both
> >>>> >> collective and individual intelligences , mediated by the same kind
> >>>> of
> >>>> >> process that occurs in meditation, a cellular level dialog perhaps
> >>>> having
> >>>> >> to do with photon emissions from DNA as is suggested in Jeremy
> >>>> Narby’s work
> >>>> >> trying to connect ayahuasca shamanism to western scientific
> >>>> research( The
> >>>> >> Cosmic Serpent).
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> > On May 31, 2018, at 7:17 PM, Ian Livingston <
> >>>> igrlivingston at gmail.com>
> >>>> >> wrote:
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> > Ain't nowhere you can go with drugs that you can't get more
> >>>> genuinely
> >>>> >> and
> >>>> >> > enduringly to with mind training.
> >>>> >> > Well, except for the hallucinations, and those are
> hallucinations,
> >>>> not
> >>>> >> > mystical experience.
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> > On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 12:32 PM, David Morris <
> fqmorris at gmail.com
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> wrote:
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> >> Smoke,
> >>>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >> I think most teachers would disapprove of your seeking after
> >>>> "mystical
> >>>> >> >> experiences."  But maybe you just are using the wrong terms.  If
> >>>> what
> >>>> >> you
> >>>> >> >> want is an "experience,"  why not just use drugs?  The "without
> >>>> drugs"
> >>>> >> part
> >>>> >> >> implies you want something more authentic, and thus more "true?"
> >>>> This
> >>>> >> >> brings on the subject of "mystical."   Here's Webster:
> >>>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >> Definition of mystical
> >>>> >> >> 1a *: *having a spiritual meaning or reality that is neither
> >>>> apparent
> >>>> >> to
> >>>> >> >> the senses nor obvious to the intelligence
> >>>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >>   - the mysticalfood of the sacrament
> >>>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >> b *: *involving or having the nature of an individual's direct
> >>>> >> subjective
> >>>> >> >> communion with God or ultimate reality
> >>>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >>   - the mysticalexperience of the Inner Light
> >>>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >> So the "mystical" implies a hidden realm/reality, and even more
> so
> >>>> >> Ultimate
> >>>> >> >> Reality.  This subject can and does go on forever, so I'll just
> >>>> point
> >>>> >> you
> >>>> >> >> to a website that provides interviews with people from MANY
> >>>> different
> >>>> >> >> paths, many of whom have reached deep levels of spiritual
> >>>> >> >> realization/experience.  Most of these paths agree that what
> most
> >>>> >> people
> >>>> >> >> experience is an illusion or veil that can be seen through into
> a
> >>>> >> >> multi-faceted deeper reality.
> >>>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >> Buddha at the Gas Pump:
> >>>> >> >> https://batgap.com/
> >>>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >> I experienced a Kundalini awakening over six years ago, but I
> >>>> didn't
> >>>> >> seek
> >>>> >> >> it, nor did I know what it was at first (thank God for the
> >>>> internet).
> >>>> >> I
> >>>> >> >> was just trying to get myself stable via meditation, having been
> >>>> thrown
> >>>> >> >> into emotional turmoil by the end of a 28 year marriage.  Then
> it
> >>>> >> >> happened.  I didn't choose Kundalini.  It chose me.  I think
> that
> >>>> is a
> >>>> >> >> common aspect of many mystical experiences.
> >>>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >> David Morris
> >>>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 1:38 PM, Smoke Teff <
> smoketeff at gmail.com>
> >>>> >> wrote:
> >>>> >> >>
> >>>> >> >>> The value of mushrooms has not depreciated in my mind (though
> >>>> many of
> >>>> >> my
> >>>> >> >>> psychedelic experiences before doing an ayahuasca ceremony do
> >>>> seem
> >>>> >> >> somewhat
> >>>> >> >>> like a child tinkering with an elementary spiritual chemistry
> >>>> set,
> >>>> >> >> without
> >>>> >> >>> having even read the instructions).
> >>>> >> >>>
> >>>> >> >>> But I’m interested in getting there mostly with the body
> >>>> technology I
> >>>> >> was
> >>>> >> >>> given—want to cultivate a path I can replicate in most/any
> >>>> environs
> >>>> >> >>>
> >>>> >> >>> Fasting and sleep deprivation have been useful in the past seem
> >>>> like
> >>>> >> they
> >>>> >> >>> involve unnecessary suffering, especially for a regular
> practice
> >>>> that
> >>>> >> >> will
> >>>> >> >>> integrate with the rest of my life at this moment—and they
> >>>> associate
> >>>> >> too
> >>>> >> >>> closely to me with other familiar ways of being
> >>>> >> >>>
> >>>> >> >>> Art gets me a decent part of the way sometimes
> >>>> >> >>>
> >>>> >> >>> I know at least Morris will have some kundalini to tell me
> >>>> about. I’m
> >>>> >> >>> thinking of things more along those lines.
> >>>> >> >>>
> >>>> >> >>> Breathing, movement, meditation
> >>>> >> >>>
> >>>> >> >>>
> >>>> >> >>>
> >>>> >> >>>> On May 31, 2018, at 12:31 PM, Glenn fuller <
> >>>> >> glennfuller at sbcglobal.net>
> >>>> >> >>> wrote:
> >>>> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >>>> Fasting and Sleep Deprivation.
> >>>> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >>>> On Thursday, May 31, 2018 10:20 AM, Allan Balliett <
> >>>> >> >>> allan.balliett at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >>>> Convince yourself that ‘shrooms aren’t a drug!
> >>>> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >>>> Are you reading the new Pollan?
> >>>> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >>>> ALLAN in WV, where the patties are in bloom
> >>>> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >>>> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 12:59 PM Smoke Teff <
> >>>> smoketeff at gmail.com>
> >>>> >> >> wrote:
> >>>> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >>>>> Soliciting recommendations and favorites
> >>>> >> >>>>> --
> >>>> >> >>>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >>>> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >>>>>
> >>>> >> >>>> --
> >>>> >> >>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >>>> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >>>>
> >>>> >> >>>>      Virus-free. www.avg.com
> >>>> >> >>> --
> >>>> >> >>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >>>> >> >>>
> >>>> >> >> --
> >>>> >> >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >>>> >> >>
> >>>> >> > --
> >>>> >> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> --
> >>>> >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >
> >>>>
> >>> --
> >>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >>>>
> >>>
> >
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>