Drugless Paths to the Mystical Experience

Keith Davis kbob42 at gmail.com
Sat Jun 2 21:38:09 CDT 2018 

If a piano player falls over in the forest, is he still playing the wrong changes?

Www.innergroovemusic.com

> On Jun 2, 2018, at 10:32 PM, Ian Livingston <igrlivingston at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> How times did Rumi write this poem? And what is the sound of two hands
> clapping in separate time zones?
> 
>> On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 5:36 PM, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> insert 'a simple mother' after worshipping her
>> sorry
>> 
>>> On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 8:34 PM, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> well, i dont even have to come up with a title. drugless paths sounds
>> fine
>>> to me. maybe a poem which i think can only be sufficient for getting a
>>> point of this type over. and anyway i'm too lazy and not enough nasty to
>> be
>>> a writer. there's a glut but i do wonder if these stories wouldn't be
>>> written anyway despite social media and technology and the need to be
>>> noticed, loved if you will. fame is the name of the game in this Oz
>> country
>>> we live in. we've seen behind the curtain a long time ago. god, who is
>> ever
>>> wanna grow up to be Michael Chabon. I dont mean to disparage. and anyway,
>>> who wants the Catholic Church on their side? Do the Mary-ites still
>> exist?
>>> Something tells me we'd been better off worshipping her
>>> 
>>> but thanks for the suggestion anyway. i'll pbly post on Facebook
>>> rich
>>> 
>>>> On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 7:22 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Rich,
>>>> 
>>>> If you were so inclined, this might make a great short story.
>>>> 
>>>> David Morris
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 5:38 PM rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> all this talk reminds me of the microdosing movement--what folly. can
>> we
>>>>> escape, mother? is she too part of the corporate swill? it would seem.
>>>>> entangled in your own dreams as the song goes. but as 70s pathetic as
>> it
>>>>> was before, now it's just insolent.
>>>>> who can expect to nudge a mystical experience? after a while a brief
>>>>> glimpse of a dark red cardinal, how can any drug compare to that?
>> drugs are
>>>>> a tool, yes. but the self life is short.
>>>>> i once had a mystical experience. ive been told we can only expect a
>>>>> couple in a lifetime. i had an image in my head, mary as mother of
>> doves
>>>>> (fairly standard icongraphy), but I had this picture of her doves in
>> her
>>>>> hand around our head by her feet, a ring of them. i happened to be
>> walking
>>>>> to class at Pratt Institute one day about 25 yrs ago around that time,
>> head
>>>>> down, it was almost like a nagging thing but in a good way. anyway i
>> get to
>>>>> the campus crossing the lawn with that in my mind and i looked up for
>> no
>>>>> apparent reason and there it was: a homeless woman in a dirty ragged
>>>>> overcoat feeding pigeons from her hand around her head by her feet, a
>> ring
>>>>> of them. it was only a split second moment but at that moment in that
>>>>> instance my heart i knew that was mary. and then it was gone. im not
>> sure i
>>>>> was too mindful in class that day. and in the explanation in words it's
>>>>> just impossible to describe. i may have mentioned this already here.
>> sure,
>>>>> maybe a coincidence, brain chemistry, suggestion, but like love it felt
>>>>> some sort of confirmation, something I knew that couldnt put into
>> words but
>>>>> knew, something powerful, was in the world. i wasnt particularly
>> religious
>>>>> mind you, but it felt as if i was hit with something between the eyes a
>>>>> beam and for that moment i was somewhere (and someone) else. and if i
>> had
>>>>> to put into words it was precious. and it wasnt the religious
>> connotation
>>>>> though that helped I suppose. it was simply what it was. something
>> behind
>>>>> the fear, the veil of our existence and it was comforting even in only
>> a
>>>>> glimpse.
>>>>> 
>>>>> rich
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 4:34 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Another thought:  Drugs used for mystical insight might be like
>>>>>> oracle/divination vehicles, like I Ching or Taro or Runes, etc.  They
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> provide insight, speaking directly to intuition, smack upside the head
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> one hard to hear.  But even such physically benign vehicles should be
>>>>>> consulted sparingly, not used like the daily rag astrology fortune.
>>>>>> Otherwise they lose their numinousity.  The seeker's ability to see,
>> if
>>>>>> used too often, becomes dulled.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> David Morris
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 2:51 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Like I said, if you want "mystical experiences," drugs are fine.
>> And
>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>> cool that they can facilitate breakthroughs from addictions or PTSD.
>>>>>> They
>>>>>>> can also cause lasting mental damage.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> But their immediate effects are fleeting for most, and if done too
>>>>>> often
>>>>>>> they "lose you in situ," as the Tragically Hip's late Gord Donnie
>>>>>> sang.
>>>>>>> Drugs are an unsustainable *spiritual* path.  So, in that sense at
>>>>>> least,
>>>>>>> they are less true.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> A sustained awakening, experiencing it as the new foundational real
>>>>>> (as
>>>>>>> opposed to a carnival ride), requires quieting the mind so that the
>>>>>> depths
>>>>>>> can emerge in longer and longer cycles, and eventually become stable
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> true.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> David Morris
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 7:48 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> DMT is the most powerful hallucinatory chemical known and is
>>>>>> endogenously
>>>>>>>> produced. It is part of our own chemistry and the chemistry of
>>>>>>>> life/reality. I think there are probably advantages to non drug
>>>>>> approaches
>>>>>>>> to visionary states, the Buddhists certainly think so, and I doubt
>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> came to that view by completely rejecting the value of
>> hallucinatory
>>>>>>>> visions. The Tibetan and Southeast Asian branches of Buddhist art
>>>>>> seems to
>>>>>>>> value such visions, including the sexual and terrifying. As an
>>>>>> artist and
>>>>>>>> seeker who has always had access to  internal and occasionally
>>>>>> external
>>>>>>>> visionary experiences but is generally at home in day to day life
>>>>>> and never
>>>>>>>> struggled with psychotic states,  I feel no particular prejudice
>>>>>> against
>>>>>>>> plant medicines etc.  The idea that they are cheap or easy way to
>>>>>> spiritual
>>>>>>>> insight feels false. Hallucinatory substances are not easy, but
>>>>>> neither do
>>>>>>>> I see them as heroic. To me, spiritual heroism has to do with
>>>>>> abiding in
>>>>>>>> love and generosity, finding a way to serve in the human community
>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> grace. But humans get stuck and it seems that holotropic medicines
>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> address that problem when a person lacks the discipline or
>>>>>> understading
>>>>>>>> that brings them to a practice like meditation or Jigong.  The
>>>>>> efficacy of
>>>>>>>> MDMA in treating PTSD is a good example, or the studies on
>>>>>> psylocibin in
>>>>>>>> helping free cancer patients from the fear of death.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I think of hallucinatory visions as a means by which lots of
>>>>>> information
>>>>>>>> is compressed into a visual form and often into something rather
>>>>>> like a
>>>>>>>> persona. The meaning does not immeditely reveal itself but requires
>>>>>> a kind
>>>>>>>> of dialog to unpack. In my experience fear inhibits that dialog and
>>>>>>>> love/fearlessness opens it and makes it valuable.The degree to
>> which
>>>>>> we are
>>>>>>>> in dialog with other spirit beings of intelligences is open to
>>>>>> debate but I
>>>>>>>> personally think there really are many voices and there may be both
>>>>>>>> collective and individual intelligences , mediated by the same kind
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> process that occurs in meditation, a cellular level dialog perhaps
>>>>>> having
>>>>>>>> to do with photon emissions from DNA as is suggested in Jeremy
>>>>>> Narby’s work
>>>>>>>> trying to connect ayahuasca shamanism to western scientific
>>>>>> research( The
>>>>>>>> Cosmic Serpent).
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On May 31, 2018, at 7:17 PM, Ian Livingston <
>>>>>> igrlivingston at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Ain't nowhere you can go with drugs that you can't get more
>>>>>> genuinely
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> enduringly to with mind training.
>>>>>>>>> Well, except for the hallucinations, and those are
>> hallucinations,
>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> mystical experience.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 12:32 PM, David Morris <
>> fqmorris at gmail.com
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Smoke,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I think most teachers would disapprove of your seeking after
>>>>>> "mystical
>>>>>>>>>> experiences."  But maybe you just are using the wrong terms.  If
>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>> want is an "experience,"  why not just use drugs?  The "without
>>>>>> drugs"
>>>>>>>> part
>>>>>>>>>> implies you want something more authentic, and thus more "true?"
>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>>>> brings on the subject of "mystical."   Here's Webster:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Definition of mystical
>>>>>>>>>> 1a *: *having a spiritual meaning or reality that is neither
>>>>>> apparent
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> the senses nor obvious to the intelligence
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>  - the mysticalfood of the sacrament
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> b *: *involving or having the nature of an individual's direct
>>>>>>>> subjective
>>>>>>>>>> communion with God or ultimate reality
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>  - the mysticalexperience of the Inner Light
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> So the "mystical" implies a hidden realm/reality, and even more
>> so
>>>>>>>> Ultimate
>>>>>>>>>> Reality.  This subject can and does go on forever, so I'll just
>>>>>> point
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>> to a website that provides interviews with people from MANY
>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>>>> paths, many of whom have reached deep levels of spiritual
>>>>>>>>>> realization/experience.  Most of these paths agree that what
>> most
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>> experience is an illusion or veil that can be seen through into
>> a
>>>>>>>>>> multi-faceted deeper reality.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Buddha at the Gas Pump:
>>>>>>>>>> https://batgap.com/
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I experienced a Kundalini awakening over six years ago, but I
>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>>>> seek
>>>>>>>>>> it, nor did I know what it was at first (thank God for the
>>>>>> internet).
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> was just trying to get myself stable via meditation, having been
>>>>>> thrown
>>>>>>>>>> into emotional turmoil by the end of a 28 year marriage.  Then
>> it
>>>>>>>>>> happened.  I didn't choose Kundalini.  It chose me.  I think
>> that
>>>>>> is a
>>>>>>>>>> common aspect of many mystical experiences.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> David Morris
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 1:38 PM, Smoke Teff <
>> smoketeff at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> The value of mushrooms has not depreciated in my mind (though
>>>>>> many of
>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>> psychedelic experiences before doing an ayahuasca ceremony do
>>>>>> seem
>>>>>>>>>> somewhat
>>>>>>>>>>> like a child tinkering with an elementary spiritual chemistry
>>>>>> set,
>>>>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>>>>>> having even read the instructions).
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> But I’m interested in getting there mostly with the body
>>>>>> technology I
>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>> given—want to cultivate a path I can replicate in most/any
>>>>>> environs
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Fasting and sleep deprivation have been useful in the past seem
>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>> involve unnecessary suffering, especially for a regular
>> practice
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>> integrate with the rest of my life at this moment—and they
>>>>>> associate
>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>>>> closely to me with other familiar ways of being
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Art gets me a decent part of the way sometimes
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I know at least Morris will have some kundalini to tell me
>>>>>> about. I’m
>>>>>>>>>>> thinking of things more along those lines.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Breathing, movement, meditation
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 31, 2018, at 12:31 PM, Glenn fuller <
>>>>>>>> glennfuller at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Fasting and Sleep Deprivation.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 31, 2018 10:20 AM, Allan Balliett <
>>>>>>>>>>> allan.balliett at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Convince yourself that ‘shrooms aren’t a drug!
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you reading the new Pollan?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> ALLAN in WV, where the patties are in bloom
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 12:59 PM Smoke Teff <
>>>>>> smoketeff at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Soliciting recommendations and favorites
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>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
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