Drugless Paths to the Mystical Experience

[Mark Kohut]

Thomas Pynchon. Crying of Lot 49.. finger pointing between her eyes. ... “I
am having a hallucination now, I don't need drugs for that.” “Don't
describe it,” he said quickly. “Well.

On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 4:34 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:

> Another thought:  Drugs used for mystical insight might be like
> oracle/divination vehicles, like I Ching or Taro or Runes, etc.  They can
> provide insight, speaking directly to intuition, smack upside the head of
> one hard to hear.  But even such physically benign vehicles should be
> consulted sparingly, not used like the daily rag astrology fortune.
> Otherwise they lose their numinousity.  The seeker's ability to see, if
> used too often, becomes dulled.
>
> David Morris
>
> On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 2:51 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Like I said, if you want "mystical experiences," drugs are fine.  And
> it's
> > cool that they can facilitate breakthroughs from addictions or PTSD.
> They
> > can also cause lasting mental damage.
> >
> > But their immediate effects are fleeting for most, and if done too often
> > they "lose you in situ," as the Tragically Hip's late Gord Donnie sang.
> > Drugs are an unsustainable *spiritual* path.  So, in that sense at least,
> > they are less true.
> >
> > A sustained awakening, experiencing it as the new foundational real (as
> > opposed to a carnival ride), requires quieting the mind so that the
> depths
> > can emerge in longer and longer cycles, and eventually become stable and
> > true.
> >
> > David Morris
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 7:48 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> >
> >> DMT is the most powerful hallucinatory chemical known and is
> endogenously
> >> produced. It is part of our own chemistry and the chemistry of
> >> life/reality. I think there are probably advantages to non drug
> approaches
> >> to visionary states, the Buddhists certainly think so, and I doubt they
> >> came to that view by completely rejecting the value of hallucinatory
> >> visions. The Tibetan and Southeast Asian branches of Buddhist art seems
> to
> >> value such visions, including the sexual and terrifying. As an artist
> and
> >> seeker who has always had access to  internal and occasionally external
> >> visionary experiences but is generally at home in day to day life and
> never
> >> struggled with psychotic states,  I feel no particular prejudice against
> >> plant medicines etc.  The idea that they are cheap or easy way to
> spiritual
> >> insight feels false. Hallucinatory substances are not easy, but neither
> do
> >> I see them as heroic. To me, spiritual heroism has to do with abiding in
> >> love and generosity, finding a way to serve in the human community with
> >> grace. But humans get stuck and it seems that holotropic medicines can
> >> address that problem when a person lacks the discipline or understading
> >> that brings them to a practice like meditation or Jigong.  The efficacy
> of
> >> MDMA in treating PTSD is a good example, or the studies on psylocibin in
> >> helping free cancer patients from the fear of death.
> >>
> >> I think of hallucinatory visions as a means by which lots of information
> >> is compressed into a visual form and often into something rather like a
> >> persona. The meaning does not immeditely reveal itself but requires a
> kind
> >> of dialog to unpack. In my experience fear inhibits that dialog and
> >> love/fearlessness opens it and makes it valuable.The degree to which we
> are
> >> in dialog with other spirit beings of intelligences is open to debate
> but I
> >> personally think there really are many voices and there may be both
> >> collective and individual intelligences , mediated by the same kind of
> >> process that occurs in meditation, a cellular level dialog perhaps
> having
> >> to do with photon emissions from DNA as is suggested in Jeremy Narby’s
> work
> >> trying to connect ayahuasca shamanism to western scientific research(
> The
> >> Cosmic Serpent).
> >>
> >>
> >> > On May 31, 2018, at 7:17 PM, Ian Livingston <igrlivingston at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Ain't nowhere you can go with drugs that you can't get more genuinely
> >> and
> >> > enduringly to with mind training.
> >> > Well, except for the hallucinations, and those are hallucinations, not
> >> > mystical experience.
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 12:32 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Smoke,
> >> >>
> >> >> I think most teachers would disapprove of your seeking after
> "mystical
> >> >> experiences."  But maybe you just are using the wrong terms.  If what
> >> you
> >> >> want is an "experience,"  why not just use drugs?  The "without
> drugs"
> >> part
> >> >> implies you want something more authentic, and thus more "true?"
> This
> >> >> brings on the subject of "mystical."   Here's Webster:
> >> >>
> >> >> Definition of mystical
> >> >> 1a *: *having a spiritual meaning or reality that is neither apparent
> >> to
> >> >> the senses nor obvious to the intelligence
> >> >>
> >> >>   - the mysticalfood of the sacrament
> >> >>
> >> >> b *: *involving or having the nature of an individual's direct
> >> subjective
> >> >> communion with God or ultimate reality
> >> >>
> >> >>   - the mysticalexperience of the Inner Light
> >> >>
> >> >> So the "mystical" implies a hidden realm/reality, and even more so
> >> Ultimate
> >> >> Reality.  This subject can and does go on forever, so I'll just point
> >> you
> >> >> to a website that provides interviews with people from MANY different
> >> >> paths, many of whom have reached deep levels of spiritual
> >> >> realization/experience.  Most of these paths agree that what most
> >> people
> >> >> experience is an illusion or veil that can be seen through into a
> >> >> multi-faceted deeper reality.
> >> >>
> >> >> Buddha at the Gas Pump:
> >> >> https://batgap.com/
> >> >>
> >> >> I experienced a Kundalini awakening over six years ago, but I didn't
> >> seek
> >> >> it, nor did I know what it was at first (thank God for the internet).
> >> I
> >> >> was just trying to get myself stable via meditation, having been
> thrown
> >> >> into emotional turmoil by the end of a 28 year marriage.  Then it
> >> >> happened.  I didn't choose Kundalini.  It chose me.  I think that is
> a
> >> >> common aspect of many mystical experiences.
> >> >>
> >> >> David Morris
> >> >>
> >> >> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 1:38 PM, Smoke Teff <smoketeff at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> The value of mushrooms has not depreciated in my mind (though many
> of
> >> my
> >> >>> psychedelic experiences before doing an ayahuasca ceremony do seem
> >> >> somewhat
> >> >>> like a child tinkering with an elementary spiritual chemistry set,
> >> >> without
> >> >>> having even read the instructions).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> But I’m interested in getting there mostly with the body technology
> I
> >> was
> >> >>> given—want to cultivate a path I can replicate in most/any environs
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Fasting and sleep deprivation have been useful in the past seem like
> >> they
> >> >>> involve unnecessary suffering, especially for a regular practice
> that
> >> >> will
> >> >>> integrate with the rest of my life at this moment—and they associate
> >> too
> >> >>> closely to me with other familiar ways of being
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Art gets me a decent part of the way sometimes
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I know at least Morris will have some kundalini to tell me about.
> I’m
> >> >>> thinking of things more along those lines.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Breathing, movement, meditation
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> On May 31, 2018, at 12:31 PM, Glenn fuller <
> >> glennfuller at sbcglobal.net>
> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Fasting and Sleep Deprivation.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On Thursday, May 31, 2018 10:20 AM, Allan Balliett <
> >> >>> allan.balliett at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Convince yourself that ‘shrooms aren’t a drug!
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Are you reading the new Pollan?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> ALLAN in WV, where the patties are in bloom
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 12:59 PM Smoke Teff <smoketeff at gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> Soliciting recommendations and favorites
> >> >>>>> --
> >> >>>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>> --
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> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>      Virus-free. www.avg.com
> >> >>> --
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> >> >>>
> >> >> --
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> >> > --
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> >>
> >
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