Late capitalism a quote

Sat Dec 25 17:23:38 UTC 2021

I wonder if it's fair to take into account, in this reckoning, the
similarities and differences of solidarity and loyalty? Different, yes, but
it's my impression the meanings get somehow conflated at times. My
impression is that loyalty subverts solidarity and solidarity transcends
(and includes) shadings of loyalty.

When people act in solidarity for the well-being of the group, they express
an ideological congruence impossible to limit to individual representatives
within the group, but only to the ideas and conflicts that bind the group
as a reactive / responsive agency. Loyalty is something given to
individuals, perhaps to movements, that is distinct from group
belongingness and agency.

Reaching back in to my memories of AtD, it seems to me that Webb was
something of an individualist, whose actions may not always have been in
the interest of the greater success of the group's aims and ideals. In that
regard, Webb represents a shift early apparent in unions from 'solidarity
forever' to a superficial form of solidarity loaned out in self-service in
begrudged union dues when individual needs are met with lip service from
elected individuals who politicked for paid leadership positions.

I know Laura Kelber and I differed on our take of unions, as she found her
needs met, while I found it difficult to find work I could afford at union
rates, and wound up frozen out of positions for which I was well-qualified,
except for my inability to pay dues while waiting to get called up for work.

These are assessments based upon personal experience.

Unions will continue to wax and wane and wax again. They have proven
effective at times, when the greater political powers of the nation
recognized that wealth is dependent upon labor and acted in recognition of
that fact. When, however, wealth becomes a shifting of market influence,
labor loses the solidarity of conviction, aspiration, and, eventually,
community.

On Sat, Dec 25, 2021 at 8:13 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:

> As I have written, I think and as Pynchon wrote about AtD---a history that
> was a little off-history, or to that effect, so ahistorical is sometimes
> part of the style.  I'll stick with the meaning
> I've arrived at as mine own this morning....and likely, given a focus on
> Webb more than the union...
>
> On Sat, Dec 25, 2021 at 10:01 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>
> > So  either P’s account of Webb’s funeral is ahistorical and unlikely, or
> > this was a situation where nobody wanted to enroll in a hit list. Pynchon
> > has definitely indicated Union activity has become more dangerous and the
> > union at this time is less strong than the later strike with Frank etc.
> >
> >
> > On Dec 25, 2021, at 7:26 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Solidarity is what union members believe in and do, in general. As if
> > union members were keeping themselves secret from the company thugs.
> > I say Pynchon would have shown us ways they did show solidarity IF they
> > COULD not go IF that was what he wanted to show.
> >
> > Real Life Unions and member funerals: ....[These three full refutations
> > are later than the time of AtD; there are scores more but could not find
> > the AtD period easily]
> > FOUND INSIDE – PAGE 217
> > Over 10,000 workers marched behind their murdered comrade Levy in the
> mass
> >  funeral given him by the workers on Tuesday ... Union Unity League
> > murdered by the forces of reaction was Harzel Weizenberg , a member of
> > unemployed council No.
> >
> > Another book
> > Again the workers of New York took part in a mass funeral of their second
> > murdered comrade , Gonzalez , on Friday , July 4 , the same day on which
> > thousands of workers were holding a huge unemployed mass demonstration in
> > Union Park ...
> >
> > Another:
> > FOUND INSIDE – PAGE 227
> > Because union benefits included funeral costs , victims received more
> > fitting , dignified funerals . ... Locals strongly encouraged all members
> > to attend the funerals of fellow workers ; some fined members who did
> not show
> > up .
> >
> > David Morris is right to point out that for Pynchon to write that none
> > from the union showed at his funeral needs a Why? Pynchon knows the above
> > basically. Therefore I read it as a statement about the meaningless (in
> > some discussable sense) of unions as an organization for human
> connection,
> > personal concern.
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 6:27 PM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On the other hand, by the time we get to the growing remnants of the
> >> Traverse clan in Humboldt County (Vineland) at the final picnic scene
> the
> >> unions are still alive and supporting each other. And in ATD, Kit and
> >> Lake's path were a lot lonelier than Reef or Frank’s. And one can only
> be
> >> so surprised that union members did not want to identify with someone
> who
> >> had just been murdered by company thugs.
> >>    The primary and most effective tactic of the unions was the
> >> non-violent withholding of labor to achieve bargaining status. This cost
> >> them many lives and made things better for future workers. Do people
> have a
> >> right to self defense or violent revolution against an oppressive
> >> government? US history started twith that premise,  but violence has
> many
> >> downsides as a means to justice, quickly becomes a bad habit. Pynchon
> seems
> >> to be able to offer a nuanced  picture of these struggles but not much
> >> sympathy for the violence of plutocrats or state aggression which were
> far
> >> out of proportion to the relatively rare instances of anarchist
> violence.
> >>
> >> > On Dec 24, 2021, at 9:46 AM, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I still find it interesting no one from the union shows up to Webb's
> >> funeral. as Reef says 'fuck'em'. I like when Pynchon throws in those
> little
> >> nuances
> >> >
> >> > rich
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 9:21 AM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com
> >> <mailto:fqmorris at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >> > I think Rich’s take on ease and pragmatics proves true as presented by
> >> Pynchon when you examine the case of Webb Traverse in ATD.  Webb starts
> out
> >> a truly likable guy, but still die-hard anti-owner/pro-labor,
> >> criminal-activist who parts ways with his youngest son over a dispute
> about
> >> principles.  But over the course of the book, things change…  including
> >> Webb.  I’ll get back to you all about the nature of that change in ATD,
> but
> >> it shouldn’t be surprising to anyone that Pynchon doesn’t see these
> things
> >> in B&W.
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 8:48 AM rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com
> <mailto:
> >> richard.romeo at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >> > you all blame capitalism like you blame religion, state, technology or
> >> the
> >> > matrix. easy to offload all that angst onto a concept. maybe it makes
> >> you
> >> > feel better but nothing changes, does it? most of us dont want radical
> >> > change. the simple matter is whatever we live in provides to most.
> that
> >> may
> >> > be hard to stomach. but it's true. prophets are the biggest hypocrites
> >> >
> >> > rich
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 12:04 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net
> >> <mailto:brook7 at sover.net>> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > This topic came up earlier and I just found this quote in
> conversation
> >> > > about Igor paying Maxine for warning about Madoff pyramid scheme.
> >> Madoff
> >> > > had a Pynchonian name without even trying. One of Madoff's kids was
> >> at a
> >> > > school where I teach an evening  art class . Very hard on him.
> >> > >
> >> > > March
> >> > > “No, I meant late capitalism is a pyramid racket on a global scale,
> >> the
> >> > > kind of pyramid you do human sacrifices up on top of, meantime
> >> getting the
> >> > > suckers to believe it’s all gonna go on forever.”
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > --
> >> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
> >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
> >> > >
> >> > --
> >> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
> >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >>
> >
> >
> --
> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>