No comment although I have them.

Thu Oct 14 21:10:00 UTC 2021

We all know that you are the heart and soul of plist, Mark.  Without you it
would be the nonplist.

As I sat down to write this, your email came in.  As I am writing it, there
is one from Morrrs.  Which I'll receive after this.

The most amazing thing happened.  I left my woman a few days ago..  And in
doing so, I told her that I can no longer bare her rage.

Fair enough.  I was being the cool guy in leaving..  Then I got this email,
from you idiots.  Saying something about Israel.  And it is obvious, that,
something, like rage, fell forth.  I was telling her about her rage, when
then something, emanated.  Perhaps there is something within me.  Maybe we
suppress it.

The timing of it was exquisite.

And everything I say is true.

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 3:48 PM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:

> Because it isn't TOTAL. 😇
>
> Let me FUCKING SIMPLIFY FOR YOU:
>
> BIDEN ADMIN CLIMATE PROPOSALS FULFILL THE UN GOALS.
>
> I will add that the admin has a TOTAL, speaking of totalizing, ALL OF
> GOVERNMENT mandate re attacking climate change.
> Worked into diplomacy, all other bills (if they can be), executive orders,
> as has happened.
>
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 3:52 PM Mach Thomberi <machthomberi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> One might what.  I didn't quite get the jizz of that mindless schpieel.
>>
>> Why can't we change it from the plist to the
>>
>> TOTAL FUCKING KOHUT LIST.
>> On Oct 14, 2021 12:02 PM, "Mark Kohut" <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Also, the US commitments to effect climate change, have been called by an
>>> outside organization, policies that match
>>> the recommendations as necessary, that if all countries were to commit to
>>> and do would meet the goal
>>> of staying under 2 degrees Celsius per the recent MAJOR, scary, UN
>>> Report.....
>>>
>>> That is, these policies meet the UN Report's recommendations to achieve
>>> the
>>> stated goal. One might think the admin
>>> talked to the UN as that report was being written---the science compiled
>>> over years, as we know--and met the guidelines. One might.....
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 11:17 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> >  I don't have that clear a take on some imagined world majority  and I
>>> > wish I could sincerely agree but at this point I stand with Greta,
>>> what we
>>> > hear from so called leaders is blah blah, blah, and what we see is
>>> growing
>>> > arms sales , continued growth in C02 emissions, threats  and violent
>>> > blockades by the US,  mass survellance, publishers being tortured for
>>> > publishing the same thing as the NY Times,  pipelines and a revived
>>> nuclear
>>> > arms program.  I could go on but what is the point.
>>> >    It’s true that there are many, many people who want change and they
>>> > gladden my heart as they do yours. They are not yet organized as an
>>> > effective agent of change though most do what they can. In the lead up
>>> to
>>> > the second Iraq war the world saw the biggest anti-war demonstration in
>>> > human history and the biggest global demonstration ever, rivaled only
>>> by
>>> > climate crisis activism. It did not stop the war and was barely
>>> covered in
>>> > the US press.
>>> >
>>> > On Oct 14, 2021, at 10:00 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > I will assert as baldly as your assertions that the majority of the
>>> people
>>> > in the Pokey Little Puppy's Whole
>>> > Wide World are acting and imagining outside of this blanket
>>> condemnation:
>>> >  "imagine solutions than are not reliant on war, poisons and ecological
>>> > rape."
>>> >
>>> > Many businesses, many countries, with whatever else they are also
>>> doing,
>>> > are acting FINALLY against this 'reliance".
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 9:51 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> The historic creation of Israel is a subject that has already led to
>>> many
>>> >> many books and articles.  I have read quite a few of those books.
>>> What I
>>> >> said is what I said, and I wasn’t trying to ccomplish whatever you or
>>> >> mathew c think I should have been. But without a doubt the so-called
>>> >> creation of Israel has involved decades of assult on the Palestinians
>>> who
>>> >> lived there before the Jewish settlers came. It was as much an act of
>>> >> destruction and theft in my view as an act of creation. In the same
>>> way the
>>> >> “creation” of the US required a destructive assault on indiginous
>>> people.
>>> >> Israel seems to me to follow the biblical paradigm of Zionism layed
>>> out in
>>> >> the legends of Joshua and later David. I think that is clear enough
>>> and
>>> >> quite defensible as a proposition.
>>> >>
>>> >>  As far as I can tell most countries are acts of imagination  and
>>> >> violence based on tilling and armies, they are a product of the
>>> paradigm of
>>> >> war . National borders and rules are usually a lot more arbitrary than
>>> >> natural human self organizing and require leaders imposing taxes
>>> through
>>> >> violence. Since the advent of mass production and fossil fuels we
>>> have a
>>> >> new paradigm that combines the economic predations of investment
>>> capitalism
>>> >> with the military power or imperial alliances. This is quickly
>>> destroying
>>> >> the biospheric stability of the planet.  Our imaginations could be
>>> put to
>>> >> better use. We are not bound to follow our path of self destruction by
>>> >> anything other than unwillingness to face the problems  and imagine
>>> >> solutions than are not reliant on war, poisons and ecological rape.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> > On Oct 14, 2021, at 7:49 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Joseph,
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Without distinctions, your generalities about all countries
>>> everywhere
>>> >> and when are always correct.
>>> >> > Yet say nothing substantive about the creation of Israel--or any
>>> other
>>> >> country for that matter.
>>> >> > And do little (or nothing) for discussion of all your Historic evils
>>> >> but show us a nice, beautifully-expressed personal credo--open to
>>> all: "the
>>> >> heart of this holy path is to choose life, to love the great mystery
>>> of
>>> >> being wih all the heart and all the mind and the very kernel of life
>>> we
>>> >> have been given, and to treat others as we wish to be treated.”
>>> >> Guess what. That is not a personal credo, Those are ideas from
>>> Judaism(
>>> >> The Torah and Maimonedes) which I appreciate and try to honor in my
>>> life.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Mark
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 12:21 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net
>>> >> <mailto:brook7 at sover.net>> wrote:
>>> >> > Annihilation is a loaded word. It sounds cruel and violent.
>>> Truthfully
>>> >> though, a name or concept or form of government can be eliminated or
>>> >> replaced without destroying human lives or poisoning the earth.
>>> Nations and
>>> >> religions have changed and died before with little or even benign
>>> >> consequences. And those nations  that survived and rose to become
>>> “great
>>> >> powers" have a pretty shitty track record to justify themselves.
>>> Imagine
>>> >> all the people living life in peace.
>>> >> > I don’t know exactly what Thomberi ( sounds a made up name) is
>>> >> intending, whether tongue in cheek or weirdly sincere, but I think
>>> matthew
>>> >> c is wildly sentimentalizing how Israel came into being. As to what
>>> is to
>>> >> be done. It is a question for all of us, not just Israel. Settler
>>> >> colonialism and its cruelties are embedded in most of the world.
>>> Western
>>> >> civilization as configured has desertified vast parts of the globe,
>>> moved
>>> >> sane indiginous cultures into bantustans and is rapidly destroying the
>>> >> diverse species upon which life as we know it exists, rapidly moving
>>> us
>>> >> toward waves of mass destruction . As for me, yes i really am ready
>>> to hand
>>> >> over my land and the very concept of property to the tribal peoples of
>>> >> north america. Would they want this mess, our mini-flags, banks and
>>> >> fracking machines? I don’t know, but I could not be more serious
>>> about my
>>> >> acre of workspace , fruit trees, asparagus, maple trees, and stone
>>> walls.
>>> >> My whole life is about the effort to move myself and others toward an
>>> >> ecologically sustainable life, and the biggest impediment to change
>>> is the
>>> >> settler colonialist warfare that continues from the ancient to the
>>> modern
>>> >> world, that turns from warlordism to nationalism  to imperial
>>> warfare. What
>>> >> Israel and the US and China and Russia and Brazil and Canada and so
>>> many
>>> >> rapacious military dictatorships are expressing in this shared
>>> planet  is
>>> >> varying forms of  sociopathic madness organized by  self destructive
>>> >> dreams, egomania, and imaginary polities that have ravaged our common
>>> sense
>>> >> as animals, our friendliness as neighbors, our ability to choose life
>>> above
>>> >> what they have too offer. And what do they have to offer as their
>>> >> civilization crumbles? Comfortable places to watch the world burn,
>>> endless
>>> >> entertaining air conditioned shitpiles, debt,  fat people eating big
>>> juicy
>>> >> hamburgers and an all too violent and real global annihilation, James
>>> Bond
>>> >> may or may not have lost his dick, but he stil has a license to kill.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >  Zionism is the same disease as the master race, manifest destiny,
>>> >> salafism, pax romana, capitalism, militarism. Its origins can be read
>>> by
>>> >> anyone. Joshua crosses into “ the promised land” to kill the sinful
>>> >> Canaanites or make them into slaves to the chosen people.”Blessed is
>>> he who
>>> >> dashes thy little ones against a stone”. This fable has become the
>>> script
>>> >> for modern day Israel, just as some version of this script has
>>> written so
>>> >> much human history. It will script global suicide if we let it. If we
>>> >> cannot prevent it.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Zionism was never the remarkable part of Judaism, the heart of this
>>> >> holy path is to choose life, to love the great mystery of being wih
>>> all the
>>> >> heart and all the mind and the very kernel of life we have been
>>> given, and
>>> >> to treat others as we wish to be treated.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > > On Oct 13, 2021, at 4:14 PM, matthew cissell <mccissell at gmail.com
>>> >> <mailto:mccissell at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > Mach,
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > So let me see. You seem to propose the annihilation of Israel, a
>>> >> country
>>> >> > > created whole cloth from ideas, dreams, stories and more by
>>> carving
>>> >> out a
>>> >> > > space for that community that had formed a nation but lacked a
>>> state.
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > Ok. Two things (that I'll say) occur to me: What do you propose
>>> for
>>> >> the
>>> >> > > people? Do you have some... solution for them as well? Would it be
>>> >> the same
>>> >> > > for Arabic and Jewish citizens? What would it entail?
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > Next: If you (and others that share your view) are the descendent
>>> of
>>> >> > > Europeans living in the Americas (or some other previously
>>> >> > > colonized place), I suppose you are also ready to 'undo' your
>>> county
>>> >> and
>>> >> > > hand over your land to the indigenous communities. Or are you
>>> writing
>>> >> from
>>> >> > > somewhere else, in which case we might talk about that place.
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > Criticizing the trespasses of any country or government is one
>>> thing,
>>> >> but
>>> >> > > calling for its abolition is something else. The actions of the
>>> >> Israeli
>>> >> > > government have often been reprehensible or even criminal, but
>>> that
>>> >> does
>>> >> > > not justify your language, which would certainly find applause and
>>> >> echoes
>>> >> > > in a certain rising current in not only US political discourse but
>>> >> more
>>> >> > > widely.
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > I'm responding not because I think your mind is likely to be
>>> changed
>>> >> but
>>> >> > > because I want you and others to know that in this open forum you
>>> >> will find
>>> >> > > voices that do not apathetically ignore your statements.
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > Ne Obliviscaris
>>> >> > > Matthew Cissell
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 4:33 PM Mach Thomberi <
>>> machthomberi at gmail.com
>>> >> <mailto:machthomberi at gmail.com>>
>>> >> > > wrote:
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > >> No we wouldn't want that would we.  Deprive Israel water and
>>> >> medicine.
>>> >> > >>
>>> >> > >> What would be marvelous.  Would be removing Israel from the map.
>>> >> Cut it
>>> >> > >> out and dispense it into the ether.
>>> >> > >>
>>> >> > >> Then do likewise of our collective memory of Israel.
>>> >> > >> On Oct 13, 2021 9:23 AM, "Joseph Tracy" <brook7 at sover.net
>>> <mailto:
>>> >> brook7 at sover.net>> wrote:
>>> >> > >>
>>> >> > >>> I would not go so far as to cut Israelis off from medicine or
>>> clean
>>> >> water
>>> >> > >>> as they have done to Gaza, but a cultural boycott is
>>> potentially a
>>> >> way to
>>> >> > >>> bring the debate into a more public sphere. We need equally to
>>> >> confront
>>> >> > >>> what so many in the western press and politics  have done on
>>> this
>>> >> issue.
>>> >> > >>> They  have supported  the insane idea that anyone who publicly
>>> >> > >> criticizes
>>> >> > >>> Israel’s abuse of Palestinians is doing so out of
>>> anti-semitism.
>>> >> They
>>> >> > >> are
>>> >> > >>> labeled  anti-semitic even if they are Jews whose parents and
>>> >> relatives
>>> >> > >>> survived or died  in Nazi concentration camps.
>>> >> > >>>  Sally Rooney said she would be honored to have her book
>>> translated
>>> >> to
>>> >> > >>> Hebrew but will not work with a publisher who does not distance
>>> >> > >> themselves
>>> >> > >>> from Israel’s aparteid treatment of Palestinians.
>>> >> > >>>
>>> >> > >>>> On Oct 11, 2021, at 3:44 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com
>>> >> <mailto:fqmorris at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> >> > >>>>
>>> >> > >>>> Why no comment?  This is a place for opinion.  As for me, I say
>>> >> > >> Bravo!  I
>>> >> > >>>> think Israel deserves full apartheid treatment right now.  And
>>> too
>>> >> many
>>> >> > >>>> people are afraid to say so.   There!  I said it.
>>> >> > >>>>
>>> >> > >>>> David Morris
>>> >> > >>>>
>>> >> > >>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 3:25 PM Mark Kohut <
>>> mark.kohut at gmail.com
>>> >> <mailto:mark.kohut at gmail.com>>
>>> >> > >> wrote:
>>> >> > >>>>
>>> >> > >>>>>
>>> >> > >>>>> https://forward.com/opinion/476513/why-wont-sally-rooney- <
>>> >> https://forward.com/opinion/476513/why-wont-sally-rooney->
>>> >> > >>> allow-her-latest-novel-to-be-translated-into-hebrew/
>>> >> > >>>>> --
>>> >> > >>>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
>>> >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
>>> >> > >>>>>
>>> >> > >>>> --
>>> >> > >>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
>>> >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
>>> >> > >>>>
>>> >> > >>>
>>> >> > >>>
>>> >> > >>>
>>> >> > >>> --
>>> >> > >>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
>>> >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
>>> >> > >>>
>>> >> > >> --
>>> >> > >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
>>> >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
>>> >> > >>
>>> >> > > --
>>> >> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
>>> >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > --
>>> >> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
>>> >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> --
>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>>
>>