No comment although I have them.

Thu Oct 14 21:14:31 UTC 2021

Take care.

I do not think I am what you say about the plist. He is buried in
Milwaukee, with a seat in his name at his favorite movie theater.

I just 1) usually respond.    2) like to send some stuff I find that might
interest and might lead to discussion.

I am away from it for days and weeks at a time. Monroe never was.

I'm sorry for your turmoil and loss.

Mark

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 5:10 PM Mach Thomberi <machthomberi at gmail.com>
wrote:

> We all know that you are the heart and soul of plist, Mark.  Without you
> it would be the nonplist.
>
> As I sat down to write this, your email came in.  As I am writing it,
> there is one from Morrrs.  Which I'll receive after this.
>
> The most amazing thing happened.  I left my woman a few days ago..  And in
> doing so, I told her that I can no longer bare her rage.
>
> Fair enough.  I was being the cool guy in leaving..  Then I got this
> email, from you idiots.  Saying something about Israel.  And it is obvious,
> that, something, like rage, fell forth.  I was telling her about her rage,
> when then something, emanated.  Perhaps there is something within me.
> Maybe we suppress it.
>
> The timing of it was exquisite.
>
> And everything I say is true.
>
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 3:48 PM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Because it isn't TOTAL. 😇
>>
>> Let me FUCKING SIMPLIFY FOR YOU:
>>
>> BIDEN ADMIN CLIMATE PROPOSALS FULFILL THE UN GOALS.
>>
>> I will add that the admin has a TOTAL, speaking of totalizing, ALL OF
>> GOVERNMENT mandate re attacking climate change.
>> Worked into diplomacy, all other bills (if they can be), executive
>> orders, as has happened.
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 3:52 PM Mach Thomberi <machthomberi at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> One might what.  I didn't quite get the jizz of that mindless schpieel.
>>>
>>> Why can't we change it from the plist to the
>>>
>>> TOTAL FUCKING KOHUT LIST.
>>> On Oct 14, 2021 12:02 PM, "Mark Kohut" <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Also, the US commitments to effect climate change, have been called by
>>>> an
>>>> outside organization, policies that match
>>>> the recommendations as necessary, that if all countries were to commit
>>>> to
>>>> and do would meet the goal
>>>> of staying under 2 degrees Celsius per the recent MAJOR, scary, UN
>>>> Report.....
>>>>
>>>> That is, these policies meet the UN Report's recommendations to achieve
>>>> the
>>>> stated goal. One might think the admin
>>>> talked to the UN as that report was being written---the science compiled
>>>> over years, as we know--and met the guidelines. One might.....
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 11:17 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >  I don't have that clear a take on some imagined world majority  and I
>>>> > wish I could sincerely agree but at this point I stand with Greta,
>>>> what we
>>>> > hear from so called leaders is blah blah, blah, and what we see is
>>>> growing
>>>> > arms sales , continued growth in C02 emissions, threats  and violent
>>>> > blockades by the US,  mass survellance, publishers being tortured for
>>>> > publishing the same thing as the NY Times,  pipelines and a revived
>>>> nuclear
>>>> > arms program.  I could go on but what is the point.
>>>> >    It’s true that there are many, many people who want change and they
>>>> > gladden my heart as they do yours. They are not yet organized as an
>>>> > effective agent of change though most do what they can. In the lead
>>>> up to
>>>> > the second Iraq war the world saw the biggest anti-war demonstration
>>>> in
>>>> > human history and the biggest global demonstration ever, rivaled only
>>>> by
>>>> > climate crisis activism. It did not stop the war and was barely
>>>> covered in
>>>> > the US press.
>>>> >
>>>> > On Oct 14, 2021, at 10:00 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > I will assert as baldly as your assertions that the majority of the
>>>> people
>>>> > in the Pokey Little Puppy's Whole
>>>> > Wide World are acting and imagining outside of this blanket
>>>> condemnation:
>>>> >  "imagine solutions than are not reliant on war, poisons and
>>>> ecological
>>>> > rape."
>>>> >
>>>> > Many businesses, many countries, with whatever else they are also
>>>> doing,
>>>> > are acting FINALLY against this 'reliance".
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 9:51 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> The historic creation of Israel is a subject that has already led to
>>>> many
>>>> >> many books and articles.  I have read quite a few of those books.
>>>> What I
>>>> >> said is what I said, and I wasn’t trying to ccomplish whatever you or
>>>> >> mathew c think I should have been. But without a doubt the so-called
>>>> >> creation of Israel has involved decades of assult on the
>>>> Palestinians who
>>>> >> lived there before the Jewish settlers came. It was as much an act of
>>>> >> destruction and theft in my view as an act of creation. In the same
>>>> way the
>>>> >> “creation” of the US required a destructive assault on indiginous
>>>> people.
>>>> >> Israel seems to me to follow the biblical paradigm of Zionism layed
>>>> out in
>>>> >> the legends of Joshua and later David. I think that is clear enough
>>>> and
>>>> >> quite defensible as a proposition.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>  As far as I can tell most countries are acts of imagination  and
>>>> >> violence based on tilling and armies, they are a product of the
>>>> paradigm of
>>>> >> war . National borders and rules are usually a lot more arbitrary
>>>> than
>>>> >> natural human self organizing and require leaders imposing taxes
>>>> through
>>>> >> violence. Since the advent of mass production and fossil fuels we
>>>> have a
>>>> >> new paradigm that combines the economic predations of investment
>>>> capitalism
>>>> >> with the military power or imperial alliances. This is quickly
>>>> destroying
>>>> >> the biospheric stability of the planet.  Our imaginations could be
>>>> put to
>>>> >> better use. We are not bound to follow our path of self destruction
>>>> by
>>>> >> anything other than unwillingness to face the problems  and imagine
>>>> >> solutions than are not reliant on war, poisons and ecological rape.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > On Oct 14, 2021, at 7:49 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Joseph,
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Without distinctions, your generalities about all countries
>>>> everywhere
>>>> >> and when are always correct.
>>>> >> > Yet say nothing substantive about the creation of Israel--or any
>>>> other
>>>> >> country for that matter.
>>>> >> > And do little (or nothing) for discussion of all your Historic
>>>> evils
>>>> >> but show us a nice, beautifully-expressed personal credo--open to
>>>> all: "the
>>>> >> heart of this holy path is to choose life, to love the great mystery
>>>> of
>>>> >> being wih all the heart and all the mind and the very kernel of life
>>>> we
>>>> >> have been given, and to treat others as we wish to be treated.”
>>>> >> Guess what. That is not a personal credo, Those are ideas from
>>>> Judaism(
>>>> >> The Torah and Maimonedes) which I appreciate and try to honor in my
>>>> life.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Mark
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 12:21 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net
>>>> >> <mailto:brook7 at sover.net>> wrote:
>>>> >> > Annihilation is a loaded word. It sounds cruel and violent.
>>>> Truthfully
>>>> >> though, a name or concept or form of government can be eliminated or
>>>> >> replaced without destroying human lives or poisoning the earth.
>>>> Nations and
>>>> >> religions have changed and died before with little or even benign
>>>> >> consequences. And those nations  that survived and rose to become
>>>> “great
>>>> >> powers" have a pretty shitty track record to justify themselves.
>>>> Imagine
>>>> >> all the people living life in peace.
>>>> >> > I don’t know exactly what Thomberi ( sounds a made up name) is
>>>> >> intending, whether tongue in cheek or weirdly sincere, but I think
>>>> matthew
>>>> >> c is wildly sentimentalizing how Israel came into being. As to what
>>>> is to
>>>> >> be done. It is a question for all of us, not just Israel. Settler
>>>> >> colonialism and its cruelties are embedded in most of the world.
>>>> Western
>>>> >> civilization as configured has desertified vast parts of the globe,
>>>> moved
>>>> >> sane indiginous cultures into bantustans and is rapidly destroying
>>>> the
>>>> >> diverse species upon which life as we know it exists, rapidly moving
>>>> us
>>>> >> toward waves of mass destruction . As for me, yes i really am ready
>>>> to hand
>>>> >> over my land and the very concept of property to the tribal peoples
>>>> of
>>>> >> north america. Would they want this mess, our mini-flags, banks and
>>>> >> fracking machines? I don’t know, but I could not be more serious
>>>> about my
>>>> >> acre of workspace , fruit trees, asparagus, maple trees, and stone
>>>> walls.
>>>> >> My whole life is about the effort to move myself and others toward an
>>>> >> ecologically sustainable life, and the biggest impediment to change
>>>> is the
>>>> >> settler colonialist warfare that continues from the ancient to the
>>>> modern
>>>> >> world, that turns from warlordism to nationalism  to imperial
>>>> warfare. What
>>>> >> Israel and the US and China and Russia and Brazil and Canada and so
>>>> many
>>>> >> rapacious military dictatorships are expressing in this shared
>>>> planet  is
>>>> >> varying forms of  sociopathic madness organized by  self destructive
>>>> >> dreams, egomania, and imaginary polities that have ravaged our
>>>> common sense
>>>> >> as animals, our friendliness as neighbors, our ability to choose
>>>> life above
>>>> >> what they have too offer. And what do they have to offer as their
>>>> >> civilization crumbles? Comfortable places to watch the world burn,
>>>> endless
>>>> >> entertaining air conditioned shitpiles, debt,  fat people eating big
>>>> juicy
>>>> >> hamburgers and an all too violent and real global annihilation,
>>>> James Bond
>>>> >> may or may not have lost his dick, but he stil has a license to kill.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >  Zionism is the same disease as the master race, manifest destiny,
>>>> >> salafism, pax romana, capitalism, militarism. Its origins can be
>>>> read by
>>>> >> anyone. Joshua crosses into “ the promised land” to kill the sinful
>>>> >> Canaanites or make them into slaves to the chosen people.”Blessed is
>>>> he who
>>>> >> dashes thy little ones against a stone”. This fable has become the
>>>> script
>>>> >> for modern day Israel, just as some version of this script has
>>>> written so
>>>> >> much human history. It will script global suicide if we let it. If we
>>>> >> cannot prevent it.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Zionism was never the remarkable part of Judaism, the heart of this
>>>> >> holy path is to choose life, to love the great mystery of being wih
>>>> all the
>>>> >> heart and all the mind and the very kernel of life we have been
>>>> given, and
>>>> >> to treat others as we wish to be treated.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > > On Oct 13, 2021, at 4:14 PM, matthew cissell <
>>>> mccissell at gmail.com
>>>> >> <mailto:mccissell at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > Mach,
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > So let me see. You seem to propose the annihilation of Israel, a
>>>> >> country
>>>> >> > > created whole cloth from ideas, dreams, stories and more by
>>>> carving
>>>> >> out a
>>>> >> > > space for that community that had formed a nation but lacked a
>>>> state.
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > Ok. Two things (that I'll say) occur to me: What do you propose
>>>> for
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> > > people? Do you have some... solution for them as well? Would it
>>>> be
>>>> >> the same
>>>> >> > > for Arabic and Jewish citizens? What would it entail?
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > Next: If you (and others that share your view) are the
>>>> descendent of
>>>> >> > > Europeans living in the Americas (or some other previously
>>>> >> > > colonized place), I suppose you are also ready to 'undo' your
>>>> county
>>>> >> and
>>>> >> > > hand over your land to the indigenous communities. Or are you
>>>> writing
>>>> >> from
>>>> >> > > somewhere else, in which case we might talk about that place.
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > Criticizing the trespasses of any country or government is one
>>>> thing,
>>>> >> but
>>>> >> > > calling for its abolition is something else. The actions of the
>>>> >> Israeli
>>>> >> > > government have often been reprehensible or even criminal, but
>>>> that
>>>> >> does
>>>> >> > > not justify your language, which would certainly find applause
>>>> and
>>>> >> echoes
>>>> >> > > in a certain rising current in not only US political discourse
>>>> but
>>>> >> more
>>>> >> > > widely.
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > I'm responding not because I think your mind is likely to be
>>>> changed
>>>> >> but
>>>> >> > > because I want you and others to know that in this open forum you
>>>> >> will find
>>>> >> > > voices that do not apathetically ignore your statements.
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > Ne Obliviscaris
>>>> >> > > Matthew Cissell
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > > On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 4:33 PM Mach Thomberi <
>>>> machthomberi at gmail.com
>>>> >> <mailto:machthomberi at gmail.com>>
>>>> >> > > wrote:
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> > >> No we wouldn't want that would we.  Deprive Israel water and
>>>> >> medicine.
>>>> >> > >>
>>>> >> > >> What would be marvelous.  Would be removing Israel from the map.
>>>> >> Cut it
>>>> >> > >> out and dispense it into the ether.
>>>> >> > >>
>>>> >> > >> Then do likewise of our collective memory of Israel.
>>>> >> > >> On Oct 13, 2021 9:23 AM, "Joseph Tracy" <brook7 at sover.net
>>>> <mailto:
>>>> >> brook7 at sover.net>> wrote:
>>>> >> > >>
>>>> >> > >>> I would not go so far as to cut Israelis off from medicine or
>>>> clean
>>>> >> water
>>>> >> > >>> as they have done to Gaza, but a cultural boycott is
>>>> potentially a
>>>> >> way to
>>>> >> > >>> bring the debate into a more public sphere. We need equally to
>>>> >> confront
>>>> >> > >>> what so many in the western press and politics  have done on
>>>> this
>>>> >> issue.
>>>> >> > >>> They  have supported  the insane idea that anyone who publicly
>>>> >> > >> criticizes
>>>> >> > >>> Israel’s abuse of Palestinians is doing so out of
>>>> anti-semitism.
>>>> >> They
>>>> >> > >> are
>>>> >> > >>> labeled  anti-semitic even if they are Jews whose parents and
>>>> >> relatives
>>>> >> > >>> survived or died  in Nazi concentration camps.
>>>> >> > >>>  Sally Rooney said she would be honored to have her book
>>>> translated
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> > >>> Hebrew but will not work with a publisher who does not distance
>>>> >> > >> themselves
>>>> >> > >>> from Israel’s aparteid treatment of Palestinians.
>>>> >> > >>>
>>>> >> > >>>> On Oct 11, 2021, at 3:44 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com
>>>> >> <mailto:fqmorris at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> > >>>> Why no comment?  This is a place for opinion.  As for me, I
>>>> say
>>>> >> > >> Bravo!  I
>>>> >> > >>>> think Israel deserves full apartheid treatment right now.
>>>> And too
>>>> >> many
>>>> >> > >>>> people are afraid to say so.   There!  I said it.
>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> > >>>> David Morris
>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> > >>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 3:25 PM Mark Kohut <
>>>> mark.kohut at gmail.com
>>>> >> <mailto:mark.kohut at gmail.com>>
>>>> >> > >> wrote:
>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> > >>>>>
>>>> >> > >>>>> https://forward.com/opinion/476513/why-wont-sally-rooney- <
>>>> >> https://forward.com/opinion/476513/why-wont-sally-rooney->
>>>> >> > >>> allow-her-latest-novel-to-be-translated-into-hebrew/
>>>> >> > >>>>> --
>>>> >> > >>>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
>>>> >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
>>>> >> > >>>>>
>>>> >> > >>>> --
>>>> >> > >>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
>>>> >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> > >>>
>>>> >> > >>>
>>>> >> > >>>
>>>> >> > >>> --
>>>> >> > >>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
>>>> >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
>>>> >> > >>>
>>>> >> > >> --
>>>> >> > >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
>>>> >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
>>>> >> > >>
>>>> >> > > --
>>>> >> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
>>>> >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > --
>>>> >> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
>>>> >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --
>>>> >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> --
>>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>>>
>>>