No comment although I have them.

Thu Oct 14 21:49:01 UTC 2021

Mark, come on, you are the god of plist.

It would not exist without you.

You are a Titan.

You make light in a world of darkness.

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 4:14 PM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:

> Take care.
>
> I do not think I am what you say about the plist. He is buried in
> Milwaukee, with a seat in his name at his favorite movie theater.
>
> I just 1) usually respond.    2) like to send some stuff I find that might
> interest and might lead to discussion.
>
> I am away from it for days and weeks at a time. Monroe never was.
>
> I'm sorry for your turmoil and loss.
>
> Mark
>
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 5:10 PM Mach Thomberi <machthomberi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> We all know that you are the heart and soul of plist, Mark.  Without you
>> it would be the nonplist.
>>
>> As I sat down to write this, your email came in.  As I am writing it,
>> there is one from Morrrs.  Which I'll receive after this.
>>
>> The most amazing thing happened.  I left my woman a few days ago..  And
>> in doing so, I told her that I can no longer bare her rage.
>>
>> Fair enough.  I was being the cool guy in leaving..  Then I got this
>> email, from you idiots.  Saying something about Israel.  And it is obvious,
>> that, something, like rage, fell forth.  I was telling her about her rage,
>> when then something, emanated.  Perhaps there is something within me.
>> Maybe we suppress it.
>>
>> The timing of it was exquisite.
>>
>> And everything I say is true.
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 3:48 PM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Because it isn't TOTAL. 😇
>>>
>>> Let me FUCKING SIMPLIFY FOR YOU:
>>>
>>> BIDEN ADMIN CLIMATE PROPOSALS FULFILL THE UN GOALS.
>>>
>>> I will add that the admin has a TOTAL, speaking of totalizing, ALL OF
>>> GOVERNMENT mandate re attacking climate change.
>>> Worked into diplomacy, all other bills (if they can be), executive
>>> orders, as has happened.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 3:52 PM Mach Thomberi <machthomberi at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> One might what.  I didn't quite get the jizz of that mindless schpieel.
>>>>
>>>> Why can't we change it from the plist to the
>>>>
>>>> TOTAL FUCKING KOHUT LIST.
>>>> On Oct 14, 2021 12:02 PM, "Mark Kohut" <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Also, the US commitments to effect climate change, have been called by
>>>>> an
>>>>> outside organization, policies that match
>>>>> the recommendations as necessary, that if all countries were to commit
>>>>> to
>>>>> and do would meet the goal
>>>>> of staying under 2 degrees Celsius per the recent MAJOR, scary, UN
>>>>> Report.....
>>>>>
>>>>> That is, these policies meet the UN Report's recommendations to
>>>>> achieve the
>>>>> stated goal. One might think the admin
>>>>> talked to the UN as that report was being written---the science
>>>>> compiled
>>>>> over years, as we know--and met the guidelines. One might.....
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 11:17 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >  I don't have that clear a take on some imagined world majority  and
>>>>> I
>>>>> > wish I could sincerely agree but at this point I stand with Greta,
>>>>> what we
>>>>> > hear from so called leaders is blah blah, blah, and what we see is
>>>>> growing
>>>>> > arms sales , continued growth in C02 emissions, threats  and violent
>>>>> > blockades by the US,  mass survellance, publishers being tortured for
>>>>> > publishing the same thing as the NY Times,  pipelines and a revived
>>>>> nuclear
>>>>> > arms program.  I could go on but what is the point.
>>>>> >    It’s true that there are many, many people who want change and
>>>>> they
>>>>> > gladden my heart as they do yours. They are not yet organized as an
>>>>> > effective agent of change though most do what they can. In the lead
>>>>> up to
>>>>> > the second Iraq war the world saw the biggest anti-war demonstration
>>>>> in
>>>>> > human history and the biggest global demonstration ever, rivaled
>>>>> only by
>>>>> > climate crisis activism. It did not stop the war and was barely
>>>>> covered in
>>>>> > the US press.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Oct 14, 2021, at 10:00 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I will assert as baldly as your assertions that the majority of the
>>>>> people
>>>>> > in the Pokey Little Puppy's Whole
>>>>> > Wide World are acting and imagining outside of this blanket
>>>>> condemnation:
>>>>> >  "imagine solutions than are not reliant on war, poisons and
>>>>> ecological
>>>>> > rape."
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Many businesses, many countries, with whatever else they are also
>>>>> doing,
>>>>> > are acting FINALLY against this 'reliance".
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 9:51 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> The historic creation of Israel is a subject that has already led
>>>>> to many
>>>>> >> many books and articles.  I have read quite a few of those books.
>>>>> What I
>>>>> >> said is what I said, and I wasn’t trying to ccomplish whatever you
>>>>> or
>>>>> >> mathew c think I should have been. But without a doubt the so-called
>>>>> >> creation of Israel has involved decades of assult on the
>>>>> Palestinians who
>>>>> >> lived there before the Jewish settlers came. It was as much an act
>>>>> of
>>>>> >> destruction and theft in my view as an act of creation. In the same
>>>>> way the
>>>>> >> “creation” of the US required a destructive assault on indiginous
>>>>> people.
>>>>> >> Israel seems to me to follow the biblical paradigm of Zionism layed
>>>>> out in
>>>>> >> the legends of Joshua and later David. I think that is clear enough
>>>>> and
>>>>> >> quite defensible as a proposition.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>  As far as I can tell most countries are acts of imagination  and
>>>>> >> violence based on tilling and armies, they are a product of the
>>>>> paradigm of
>>>>> >> war . National borders and rules are usually a lot more arbitrary
>>>>> than
>>>>> >> natural human self organizing and require leaders imposing taxes
>>>>> through
>>>>> >> violence. Since the advent of mass production and fossil fuels we
>>>>> have a
>>>>> >> new paradigm that combines the economic predations of investment
>>>>> capitalism
>>>>> >> with the military power or imperial alliances. This is quickly
>>>>> destroying
>>>>> >> the biospheric stability of the planet.  Our imaginations could be
>>>>> put to
>>>>> >> better use. We are not bound to follow our path of self destruction
>>>>> by
>>>>> >> anything other than unwillingness to face the problems  and imagine
>>>>> >> solutions than are not reliant on war, poisons and ecological rape.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> > On Oct 14, 2021, at 7:49 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Joseph,
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Without distinctions, your generalities about all countries
>>>>> everywhere
>>>>> >> and when are always correct.
>>>>> >> > Yet say nothing substantive about the creation of Israel--or any
>>>>> other
>>>>> >> country for that matter.
>>>>> >> > And do little (or nothing) for discussion of all your Historic
>>>>> evils
>>>>> >> but show us a nice, beautifully-expressed personal credo--open to
>>>>> all: "the
>>>>> >> heart of this holy path is to choose life, to love the great
>>>>> mystery of
>>>>> >> being wih all the heart and all the mind and the very kernel of
>>>>> life we
>>>>> >> have been given, and to treat others as we wish to be treated.”
>>>>> >> Guess what. That is not a personal credo, Those are ideas from
>>>>> Judaism(
>>>>> >> The Torah and Maimonedes) which I appreciate and try to honor in my
>>>>> life.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Mark
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 12:21 AM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net
>>>>> >> <mailto:brook7 at sover.net>> wrote:
>>>>> >> > Annihilation is a loaded word. It sounds cruel and violent.
>>>>> Truthfully
>>>>> >> though, a name or concept or form of government can be eliminated or
>>>>> >> replaced without destroying human lives or poisoning the earth.
>>>>> Nations and
>>>>> >> religions have changed and died before with little or even benign
>>>>> >> consequences. And those nations  that survived and rose to become
>>>>> “great
>>>>> >> powers" have a pretty shitty track record to justify themselves.
>>>>> Imagine
>>>>> >> all the people living life in peace.
>>>>> >> > I don’t know exactly what Thomberi ( sounds a made up name) is
>>>>> >> intending, whether tongue in cheek or weirdly sincere, but I think
>>>>> matthew
>>>>> >> c is wildly sentimentalizing how Israel came into being. As to what
>>>>> is to
>>>>> >> be done. It is a question for all of us, not just Israel. Settler
>>>>> >> colonialism and its cruelties are embedded in most of the world.
>>>>> Western
>>>>> >> civilization as configured has desertified vast parts of the globe,
>>>>> moved
>>>>> >> sane indiginous cultures into bantustans and is rapidly destroying
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> diverse species upon which life as we know it exists, rapidly
>>>>> moving us
>>>>> >> toward waves of mass destruction . As for me, yes i really am ready
>>>>> to hand
>>>>> >> over my land and the very concept of property to the tribal peoples
>>>>> of
>>>>> >> north america. Would they want this mess, our mini-flags, banks and
>>>>> >> fracking machines? I don’t know, but I could not be more serious
>>>>> about my
>>>>> >> acre of workspace , fruit trees, asparagus, maple trees, and stone
>>>>> walls.
>>>>> >> My whole life is about the effort to move myself and others toward
>>>>> an
>>>>> >> ecologically sustainable life, and the biggest impediment to change
>>>>> is the
>>>>> >> settler colonialist warfare that continues from the ancient to the
>>>>> modern
>>>>> >> world, that turns from warlordism to nationalism  to imperial
>>>>> warfare. What
>>>>> >> Israel and the US and China and Russia and Brazil and Canada and so
>>>>> many
>>>>> >> rapacious military dictatorships are expressing in this shared
>>>>> planet  is
>>>>> >> varying forms of  sociopathic madness organized by  self destructive
>>>>> >> dreams, egomania, and imaginary polities that have ravaged our
>>>>> common sense
>>>>> >> as animals, our friendliness as neighbors, our ability to choose
>>>>> life above
>>>>> >> what they have too offer. And what do they have to offer as their
>>>>> >> civilization crumbles? Comfortable places to watch the world burn,
>>>>> endless
>>>>> >> entertaining air conditioned shitpiles, debt,  fat people eating
>>>>> big juicy
>>>>> >> hamburgers and an all too violent and real global annihilation,
>>>>> James Bond
>>>>> >> may or may not have lost his dick, but he stil has a license to
>>>>> kill.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >  Zionism is the same disease as the master race, manifest destiny,
>>>>> >> salafism, pax romana, capitalism, militarism. Its origins can be
>>>>> read by
>>>>> >> anyone. Joshua crosses into “ the promised land” to kill the sinful
>>>>> >> Canaanites or make them into slaves to the chosen people.”Blessed
>>>>> is he who
>>>>> >> dashes thy little ones against a stone”. This fable has become the
>>>>> script
>>>>> >> for modern day Israel, just as some version of this script has
>>>>> written so
>>>>> >> much human history. It will script global suicide if we let it. If
>>>>> we
>>>>> >> cannot prevent it.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Zionism was never the remarkable part of Judaism, the heart of
>>>>> this
>>>>> >> holy path is to choose life, to love the great mystery of being wih
>>>>> all the
>>>>> >> heart and all the mind and the very kernel of life we have been
>>>>> given, and
>>>>> >> to treat others as we wish to be treated.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > > On Oct 13, 2021, at 4:14 PM, matthew cissell <
>>>>> mccissell at gmail.com
>>>>> >> <mailto:mccissell at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > Mach,
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > So let me see. You seem to propose the annihilation of Israel, a
>>>>> >> country
>>>>> >> > > created whole cloth from ideas, dreams, stories and more by
>>>>> carving
>>>>> >> out a
>>>>> >> > > space for that community that had formed a nation but lacked a
>>>>> state.
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > Ok. Two things (that I'll say) occur to me: What do you propose
>>>>> for
>>>>> >> the
>>>>> >> > > people? Do you have some... solution for them as well? Would it
>>>>> be
>>>>> >> the same
>>>>> >> > > for Arabic and Jewish citizens? What would it entail?
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > Next: If you (and others that share your view) are the
>>>>> descendent of
>>>>> >> > > Europeans living in the Americas (or some other previously
>>>>> >> > > colonized place), I suppose you are also ready to 'undo' your
>>>>> county
>>>>> >> and
>>>>> >> > > hand over your land to the indigenous communities. Or are you
>>>>> writing
>>>>> >> from
>>>>> >> > > somewhere else, in which case we might talk about that place.
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > Criticizing the trespasses of any country or government is one
>>>>> thing,
>>>>> >> but
>>>>> >> > > calling for its abolition is something else. The actions of the
>>>>> >> Israeli
>>>>> >> > > government have often been reprehensible or even criminal, but
>>>>> that
>>>>> >> does
>>>>> >> > > not justify your language, which would certainly find applause
>>>>> and
>>>>> >> echoes
>>>>> >> > > in a certain rising current in not only US political discourse
>>>>> but
>>>>> >> more
>>>>> >> > > widely.
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > I'm responding not because I think your mind is likely to be
>>>>> changed
>>>>> >> but
>>>>> >> > > because I want you and others to know that in this open forum
>>>>> you
>>>>> >> will find
>>>>> >> > > voices that do not apathetically ignore your statements.
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > Ne Obliviscaris
>>>>> >> > > Matthew Cissell
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > > On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 4:33 PM Mach Thomberi <
>>>>> machthomberi at gmail.com
>>>>> >> <mailto:machthomberi at gmail.com>>
>>>>> >> > > wrote:
>>>>> >> > >
>>>>> >> > >> No we wouldn't want that would we.  Deprive Israel water and
>>>>> >> medicine.
>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>> >> > >> What would be marvelous.  Would be removing Israel from the
>>>>> map.
>>>>> >> Cut it
>>>>> >> > >> out and dispense it into the ether.
>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>> >> > >> Then do likewise of our collective memory of Israel.
>>>>> >> > >> On Oct 13, 2021 9:23 AM, "Joseph Tracy" <brook7 at sover.net
>>>>> <mailto:
>>>>> >> brook7 at sover.net>> wrote:
>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>> >> > >>> I would not go so far as to cut Israelis off from medicine or
>>>>> clean
>>>>> >> water
>>>>> >> > >>> as they have done to Gaza, but a cultural boycott is
>>>>> potentially a
>>>>> >> way to
>>>>> >> > >>> bring the debate into a more public sphere. We need equally to
>>>>> >> confront
>>>>> >> > >>> what so many in the western press and politics  have done on
>>>>> this
>>>>> >> issue.
>>>>> >> > >>> They  have supported  the insane idea that anyone who publicly
>>>>> >> > >> criticizes
>>>>> >> > >>> Israel’s abuse of Palestinians is doing so out of
>>>>> anti-semitism.
>>>>> >> They
>>>>> >> > >> are
>>>>> >> > >>> labeled  anti-semitic even if they are Jews whose parents and
>>>>> >> relatives
>>>>> >> > >>> survived or died  in Nazi concentration camps.
>>>>> >> > >>>  Sally Rooney said she would be honored to have her book
>>>>> translated
>>>>> >> to
>>>>> >> > >>> Hebrew but will not work with a publisher who does not
>>>>> distance
>>>>> >> > >> themselves
>>>>> >> > >>> from Israel’s aparteid treatment of Palestinians.
>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> > >>>> On Oct 11, 2021, at 3:44 PM, David Morris <
>>>>> fqmorris at gmail.com
>>>>> >> <mailto:fqmorris at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> > >>>> Why no comment?  This is a place for opinion.  As for me, I
>>>>> say
>>>>> >> > >> Bravo!  I
>>>>> >> > >>>> think Israel deserves full apartheid treatment right now.
>>>>> And too
>>>>> >> many
>>>>> >> > >>>> people are afraid to say so.   There!  I said it.
>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> > >>>> David Morris
>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> > >>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 3:25 PM Mark Kohut <
>>>>> mark.kohut at gmail.com
>>>>> >> <mailto:mark.kohut at gmail.com>>
>>>>> >> > >> wrote:
>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> > >>>>>
>>>>> >> > >>>>> https://forward.com/opinion/476513/why-wont-sally-rooney- <
>>>>> >> https://forward.com/opinion/476513/why-wont-sally-rooney->
>>>>> >> > >>> allow-her-latest-novel-to-be-translated-into-hebrew/
>>>>> >> > >>>>> --
>>>>> >> > >>>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
>>>>> >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
>>>>> >> > >>>>>
>>>>> >> > >>>> --
>>>>> >> > >>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
>>>>> >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
>>>>> >> > >>>>
>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> > >>> --
>>>>> >> > >>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
>>>>> >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
>>>>> >> > >>>
>>>>> >> > >> --
>>>>> >> > >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
>>>>> >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
>>>>> >> > >>
>>>>> >> > > --
>>>>> >> > > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
>>>>> >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > --
>>>>> >> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l <
>>>>> >> https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> --
>>>>> >> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> --
>>>>> Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
>>>>>
>>>>