NP: On the Ukraine thread

[Thomas Eckhardt]

Am 13.02.2022 um 20:17 schrieb Martin Dietze:

> OK, one, hopefully last time (not that it will turn firm conspiracy theory
> believers into realists, but anyway).

Did you know that the CIA weaponized the term "conspiracy theorist" to
smear critics of the Warren Commission Report? What you mean is, to use
Richard Hofstadter's much more accurate phrase, "conspiratorial fantasy
believers". I hope this helps.

> Just to clarify: the “nifty details” are what you are trying to apply:
> while the case of Debaltseve is really crystal clear, you pick some
> newspaper article containing information that Debaltseve was “not
> mentioned” in the Minsk II treaty and deduct that therefore the Russians
> continuing their offensive and eventually taking the town after the
> ceasefire’s begin was not necessarily a violation of the treaty.
> International experts don’t agree with you. But you disagree. Let’s leave
> it with that.

No. I took "some newspaper article" to point out that Putin addressed
the situation in Debaltseve in Minsk and that Poroshenko saw no problem
and therefore no reason to include Debaltseve in the Minsk Protocol.
This is why things are less than "crystal clear". I quoted "some
newspaper" on this issue. Here is another one:

"Mr. Putin said that Mr. Poroshenko refused to acknowledge that the
separatist forces had surrounded up to 8,000 Ukrainian soldiers in
Debaltseve, but the Russian leader said he hoped that consultations
between military commanders would settle that matter. Mr. Putin warned
that the situation there carried the potential for renewed fighting, but
he called on both sides to stop the bloodshed."

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/13/world/europe/ukraine-talks-cease-fire.html

Do you think that the FAZ and the NYT provide misinformation? Do you
believe Putin lied when he said that? What is it?

I also argued that the Minsk Protocol was not cancelled by Ukraine after
Debaltseve. Therefore, everybody still has to fulfil the conditions laid
down in the agreement.

> Regarding the “Nuland-Pyatt phone call”: the US (like the Russians and many
> other) had some preferences concerning Ukrainian politicians and parties.
> That’s what was documented by the call. Concluding that they actually
> ordered particular candidates to step down (with them obeying) or in some
> other way were in control of the events in Ukraine in early 2014 really
> nothing more than a conspiracy theory based on the idea that people in
> Ukraine were unable to form their own opinions, incapable of their own
> initiative etc. I won’t continue on this, it’s spectacularly ridiculous.

"Spectacularly ridiculous" you say?

Nuland: "Good. I don't think Klitsch should go into the government. I
don't think it's necessary, I don't think it's a good idea."

Nuland: "I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the
governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok
on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know."

Nuland: "So that would be great, I think, to help glue this thing and to
have the UN help glue it and, you know, Fuck the EU."

Pyatt: "So let me work on Klitschko and if you can just keep... we want
to try to get somebody with an international personality to come out
here and help to midwife this thing."

Nuland: "So on that piece Geoff, when I wrote the note [US
vice-president's national security adviser Jake] Sullivan's come back to
me VFR [direct to me], saying you need [US Vice-President Joe] Biden and
I said probably tomorrow for an atta-boy and to get the deets [details]
to stick. So Biden's willing."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

"Have the UN help glue this thing", "midwife this thing" - if this is
not proof of a conspiracy to determine the future Ukrainian government,
I don't know what is.

> Now comes what I had predicted: "what about Azov's symbolism". Very simple.
> As the unit was formed by a group of neo nazis, what do you expect?

I expect neo-Nazi insignia from a neo-Nazi unit. What I do not expect is
the West to arm and train neo-Nazi units.

> So some Newsweek journalist disagrees with me?

First, it is "some newspaper", now it is "some  Newsweek journalist"...

> "'Apparently deradicalizing the Ukrainian military and security forces
> of far-right elements is simply not on Washington's wish-list. The same
> applies to other Western governments supporting Ukraine.'"
>
> Yes. Sure. That must be the reason. See Nuland. Now this is getting
> absurdly comical.

Tell that to Newsweek.

> I have read the stuff you are writing hundreds of times on different
> occasions.

Inexpensive salvo. I have read the stuff you are writing thousands of
times on different occasions.

Tell me please, which one of the sources I used do you deem a "Russian
propaganda" outlet? Newsweek? Katchanovski, who like Ishchenko was a
supporter of the Maidan until the Banderites turned up? The FAZ? The NYT?

> So diving into this from time to time again has the sole purpose not to
> leave this nonsense uncontradicted in the public. It’s just all so
> predictable….

Indeed. As is your completely unwarranted condescension.