NP: On the Ukraine thread

[Mark Kohut]

Right to the trash, unread.....waiting on BE, Joe...

On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 11:55 PM David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:

> Joe,
>
> You really have crossed the line into becoming actually offensive with
> these last statements and accusations.
>
> On Thu, Feb 17, 2022 at 11:27 PM Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>
> > More shrill warnings  from White House, UK and press of invasion tomorrow
> > that continues not to happen. Party leaders really seem to want a war and
> > want to say the only thing keeping Russia from invading is sanctions
> which
> > is clearly lame crap.  I think this is leading toward a democratic defeat
> > in Nov. Biden can’t be much more of a duck but he can be even more lamed
> as
> > a leader.
> >
> > I don’t see or hear credible claims that the Russian Army is occupying
> any
> > part of Ukraine.You keep saying that but that is not being reported.
> >
> >
> >
> > The Red Cross reports firing and dangers from mines and unexploded
> > ordinace on both sides of east west lines which has picked up again as
> > Biden war talk escalates. The ones being killed in this article were on
> the
> > east side of the line. You make it sound that all aggression is from
> > Russia. I think you know this is false.  To be honest you seem to want
> > Russia to attack. I still think this highly unlkely but the US by saying
> > they have intel of flase flag attack can have a real attack, call it
> false
> > flag and who will stop the the killing.  I continue to find Russia’s
> stated
> > demands are resonable and the basis for starting to make peace and allow
> > Ukraine to unite with recognition of the rights of all regional
> interesests
> > and ethnicities.
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Feb 14, 2022, at 12:10 PM, Martin Dietze <mdietze at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On 14. February 2022 at 17:57:41, Joseph Tracy (brook7 at sover.net
> > <mailto:brook7 at sover.net>) wrote:
> > >
> > >>  In fact the deal is not that broken, the lines are the same, there is
> > little to no fighting being reported and the remaining  issue is Nato.
> > >
> > > Nope, it isn’t. According to the Minsk II elections in the occupied
> > territories have to be held according to Ukrainian law. There is no way
> > that elections deserving that very name can be held there unless Russia
> > gives up its claim to keep 100% control over there. The previous
> > “elections” were like this: a separatist ran against another separatist
> > (which, unlike the first, was not allowed to campaign). Pro-Ukrainian
> > parties were completely forbidden. The election was rigged.
> > >
> > > Ukraine is right not to let this happen. And it is not the dealbreaker
> > here, in particular because all this blaming Ukraine is ridiculous given
> > the past as I have pointed out.
> > >
> > >> The only one who cares about Ukrainians is Ukrainians.
> > >
> > > Sure. That’s nothing new.
> > >
> > >> If there is stagnation, debt and corruption after the revolution they
> > can no longer blame Russia.
> > >
> > > Wrong. Russia leads war in Ukraine. Every week young Ukrainian soldiers
> > are killed by snipers or grenades. Ukraine needs to spend quite a big
> > portion of its state budget on its army. Russia blocks free trade through
> > the Kerch strait at will causing a big problem for Eastern Ukrainian
> > economy. The current situation has lead to foreign companies withdrawing
> > from Ukraine and flights being cancelled. These are quite significant
> > factors solely caused by Russia.
> > >
> > > There are of course internal problems, like corruption. However the
> > country had been doing relatively well compared to other post soviet
> > countries depite of this.
> > >
> > >>  I said this because politicians rally voters around who to blame, not
> > because Ukraine is uniquely problematic. But this tactic can only
> continue
> > through the premise that Russia has or wants dominance. And that looks
> hard
> > to sustain. I don’t think they want your country. What would it add to
> them
> > but endless headaches?
> > >
> > > Russia does want dominance. The Ukrainians know this very well, because
> > they have been the target of Russian “hard power” for quite a number of
> > years already (like Russia drastically increasing gas prices in January
> > 2005 after Ukraine had “dared” to elect the “wrong” president).
> > >
> > > When sitting thousands of miles away where it’s cosy and warm, and with
> > no foreign army in your country, making such statements about a foreign
> > country subjected to war and aggression is a bit … peculiar.
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Pynchon-L: https://waste.org/mailman/listinfo/pynchon-l
> >
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>