Tangentially Pynchon. see today's Google Doodle

[ish mailian]

So you are bored now and would rather we flame and fight and fuck with
one another? Is that it? Bring back the bad old days?

Grow the fuck up. Get a life.
Of lick your balls for a while. Relax.

On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 4:45 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> The P-list is looking more & more like the good/bad old days, when you were
> Terrance.
>
> David Morris
>
> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 3:14 PM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> You will listen to Monte.
>> Good dog that you are.
>>
>> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 10:57 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Ish,
>> >
>> > You have failed (once again) to make me pay any attention to your posts.
>> > I
>> > inevitably delete them before completing the first sentence.
>> >
>> > David Morris
>> >
>> > On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 9:49 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> David,
>> >>
>> >> On this thread and on the Holocaust thread you have failed to
>> >> understand the use of terms. On the Holocaust, the post from Rich was
>> >> very good. I suggest you re-read it and reconsider how the words, like
>> >> "depict",  "holocaust" , "genocide" are being used by your
>> >> interlocutors. Rich demonstrates, with a gentle didactic post, a
>> >> strategy you seem to prefer but hypocritically rarely employ,  much
>> >> knowledge of the camps and what happened at each and how one could
>> >> certainly, as Doug has, for example, conclude that the holocaust is
>> >> present in GR. On Anarchy, Mark intimated that the word has several
>> >> meanings and that he was not using the term to mean no planning or the
>> >> lack of any plan. Again, if you reconsider your rigid readings of
>> >> terms, you, an obvious authority, may still, learn something new.
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 9:37 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > I also apologize for taking my objection to the label too far.  The
>> >> > fact
>> >> > that others have slapped the anarchy label on her isn't much of an
>> >> > argument
>> >> > about the content of her theories.  My post about her championing the
>> >> > "urban
>> >> > villiage" against Pruitt-Igoe is the most direct description of her
>> >> > work.  I
>> >> > would call that "organic."
>> >> >
>> >> > I agree it is semantic, but "anarchy" has connotations of
>> >> > "no-planning"
>> >> > that
>> >> > don't fit her at all. The fact that the Austrian Economics Cult
>> >> > embraced
>> >> > (hijacked) her as "Anti-Planner" shows how labels can be misleading
>> >> > and
>> >> > counter-productive.  Their "connection" with her is parasitic.
>> >> >
>> >> > David Morris
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> OK...I apologize for going on after my simple post yesterday....I
>> >> >> did
>> >> >> not
>> >> >> think it was so contestable.
>> >> >> as this wiki entry sez, as is true of most major words describing
>> >> >> ideas,
>> >> >> 'There are many meanings to
>> >> >> anarchism and not all of them are mutually exclusive"
>> >> >>
>> >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In yesterday's Google Doodle article and in many summary
>> >> >> presentations
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> Ms Jacobs' notions,
>> >> >> the phrase 'street ballet" from her (or about her vision, don't
>> >> >> know)
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> used as the positive vision she
>> >> >> argued for deeply re the ineradicable human quality she believed
>> >> >> necessary
>> >> >> for right city life.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Knowing her work far less than Morris, that phrase and concept came
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> remind me later of, among other things,
>> >> >> the anarchist's dance scene in Lot 49, under the bridge, everyone
>> >> >> not
>> >> >> bumping, a self-organizing dance/ballet
>> >> >> that is part of TRP's vision, his hopeful vision. Then there is the
>> >> >> anarchy theme in Against the Day.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> When I would walk NY streets, including the Village or visit
>> >> >> Washington
>> >> >> Square or Union Square parks and see
>> >> >> 1) chess hustlers playing 2) skateboarders 3) walkers 4) runners 5)
>> >> >> simple
>> >> >> stretchers and exercisers 6) sunbathers
>> >> >> sunning 6) couples holding hands 7) couples canoodling 8) little
>> >> >> picnics
>> >> >> 9) readers sitting 10) kids playing marbles
>> >> >> and more ....I would lightly marvel at how it all happened on its
>> >> >> own,
>> >> >> self-organized, little or no bumping, so to say,  later coming to
>> >> >> see
>> >> >> it under the label of a kind of social anarchy good.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> My attempt yesterday to link Jacobs 'street ballet' to a Pynchon's
>> >> >> notion
>> >> >> of anarchy was just a speculative attempt
>> >> >> to point out that he lived in the Village when Jane was an activist
>> >> >> with
>> >> >> her 'radical' notions; he was around when her
>> >> >> first book was published......I have asked myself and haven't found
>> >> >> it
>> >> >> in
>> >> >> the scholars of TRP I've read where TRP's notions
>> >> >> re anarchism might have come from....theorists like Kropotkin and
>> >> >> Herzen---we know he went to see Stoppard's play
>> >> >> on all these Russians decades later so there is them as a possible
>> >> >> influence but I have also wondered about
>> >> >> such as New Yorkers Goodman and Jacobs....
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 7:48 AM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Oh! I finally got the joke!
>> >> >>> Wherein the P-list debates the definition of anarchy.
>> >> >>> I'm with Joseph.
>> >> >>> But what we really need is a someone who can authorise which
>> >> >>> definition is correct.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 9:02 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>> >> >>> wrote:
>> >> >>> > To my thinking this is semantic. If by anarchic we mean mean an
>> >> >>> > organizational tendency from less to no central authority or
>> >> >>> > command, then
>> >> >>> > Mark and other writers are using the term reasonably. If one
>> >> >>> > means a
>> >> >>> > political ideology with no executive decision makers and a
>> >> >>> > committment to
>> >> >>> > removing those in authority, then you win...
>> >> >>> >> On May 4, 2016, at 5:13 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> >> >>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> To champion grass-roots  social-based urbanism (championing
>> >> >>> >> "urban
>> >> >>> >> villages," essentially) as opposed to the modernist urban
>> >> >>> >> renewal
>> >> >>> >> ideals of
>> >> >>> >> her time, doesn't make her in any way anarchistic.  She was
>> >> >>> >> opposed
>> >> >>> >> to
>> >> >>> >> Modernism's ideals for urbanism.  It has now long been
>> >> >>> >> recognized
>> >> >>> >> that her
>> >> >>> >> concepts of an organic people-oriented urbanism is much more
>> >> >>> >> livable than
>> >> >>> >> what she opposed.  Essentially she was pointing out that the
>> >> >>> >> ghettos that
>> >> >>> >> were being torn down were much more livable that the Pruitt-Igoe
>> >> >>> >> style
>> >> >>> >> urbanism that was being proposed to replace it.  She was right.
>> >> >>> >> Labeling
>> >> >>> >> that stance as "anarchism" is silly and misses the main ideas
>> >> >>> >> she
>> >> >>> >> promoted.
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> This (Pruitt-Igoe) is what she opposed:
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/apr/22/pruitt-igoe-high-rise-urban-america-history-cities
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> And the earlier city which surrounds the project (which was not
>> >> >>> >> the
>> >> >>> >> product of anarchy in any meaningful sense - except as opposed
>> >> >>> >> to
>> >> >>> >> Pruitt-Igoe)  in the photo is what she championed.
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> David Morris
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 3:48 PM, Mark Kohut
>> >> >>> >> <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >> >>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>> >> David,
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> There is a deep strain of human-sized, freedom-embracing,
>> >> >>> >> non-top-down, self-organizing activities which
>> >> >>> >> have been written about even here as 'anarchism'. See the
>> >> >>> >> anarchist
>> >> >>> >> dance in Lot 49.
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> Jacob's vision of city life has been seen under these concepts
>> >> >>> >> by
>> >> >>> >> many
>> >> >>> >> for a long time: Here is the estimable
>> >> >>> >> Richard Sennet for one: As Jane Jacobs points out, high
>> >> >>> >> concentration
>> >> >>> >> of dwelling units per acre and high land coverage are essential
>> >> >>> >> to
>> >> >>> >> the ...
>> >> >>> >> 1969), and the appreciative review by Richard Sennett, “The
>> >> >>> >> Anarchism of
>> >> >>> >> Jane Jacobs,” New York Review of Books ...
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> There are scores more which I am not hunting down. it is her
>> >> >>> >> vision
>> >> >>> >> of
>> >> >>> >> urban living, and parts of mumford's which might relate
>> >> >>> >> them to Pynchon and are what I was referring to.
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 4:12 PM, David Morris
>> >> >>> >> <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> >> >>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>> >> Jane Jacobs was in no way connected to anarchism, but, like
>> >> >>> >> Mumford,
>> >> >>> >> she was a proponent of urban living, as are most architects just
>> >> >>> >> about
>> >> >>> >> anywhere...
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> David Morris
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Mark Kohut
>> >> >>> >> <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >> >>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>> >> about urban theorist Jane Jacobs. Read up and see that
>> >> >>> >> she shared many notions with Lewis Mumford, discussed a lot
>> >> >>> >> here on the List. Her ideas of a vibrant diverse 'anarchic'
>> >> >>> >> street
>> >> >>> >> and storefront life might dovetail with many of P's meanings of
>> >> >>> >> anarchic goodness.
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> Remember that she lived in Greenwich Village, near Barthelme
>> >> >>> >> (therefore
>> >> >>> >> Pynchon) I believe and Grace Paley and her husband
>> >> >>> >> most of the time TRP was supposed to have
>> >> >>> >> lived there. I think.
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> Everything connects.
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > -
>> >> >>> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> >> >>> -
>> >> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> -
>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> >
>> >
>> -
>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
>
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Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l