Tangentially Pynchon. see today's Google Doodle

Thu May 5 17:10:14 CDT 2016

I like you Morris. A good dog is hard to find.

On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 6:09 PM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:
> So you are bored now and would rather we flame and fight and fuck with
> one another? Is that it? Bring back the bad old days?
>
> Grow the fuck up. Get a life.
> Of lick your balls for a while. Relax.
>
> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 4:45 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>> The P-list is looking more & more like the good/bad old days, when you were
>> Terrance.
>>
>> David Morris
>>
>> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 3:14 PM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> You will listen to Monte.
>>> Good dog that you are.
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 10:57 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Ish,
>>> >
>>> > You have failed (once again) to make me pay any attention to your posts.
>>> > I
>>> > inevitably delete them before completing the first sentence.
>>> >
>>> > David Morris
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 9:49 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> David,
>>> >>
>>> >> On this thread and on the Holocaust thread you have failed to
>>> >> understand the use of terms. On the Holocaust, the post from Rich was
>>> >> very good. I suggest you re-read it and reconsider how the words, like
>>> >> "depict",  "holocaust" , "genocide" are being used by your
>>> >> interlocutors. Rich demonstrates, with a gentle didactic post, a
>>> >> strategy you seem to prefer but hypocritically rarely employ,  much
>>> >> knowledge of the camps and what happened at each and how one could
>>> >> certainly, as Doug has, for example, conclude that the holocaust is
>>> >> present in GR. On Anarchy, Mark intimated that the word has several
>>> >> meanings and that he was not using the term to mean no planning or the
>>> >> lack of any plan. Again, if you reconsider your rigid readings of
>>> >> terms, you, an obvious authority, may still, learn something new.
>>> >>
>>> >> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 9:37 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >> > I also apologize for taking my objection to the label too far.  The
>>> >> > fact
>>> >> > that others have slapped the anarchy label on her isn't much of an
>>> >> > argument
>>> >> > about the content of her theories.  My post about her championing the
>>> >> > "urban
>>> >> > villiage" against Pruitt-Igoe is the most direct description of her
>>> >> > work.  I
>>> >> > would call that "organic."
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I agree it is semantic, but "anarchy" has connotations of
>>> >> > "no-planning"
>>> >> > that
>>> >> > don't fit her at all. The fact that the Austrian Economics Cult
>>> >> > embraced
>>> >> > (hijacked) her as "Anti-Planner" shows how labels can be misleading
>>> >> > and
>>> >> > counter-productive.  Their "connection" with her is parasitic.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > David Morris
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> OK...I apologize for going on after my simple post yesterday....I
>>> >> >> did
>>> >> >> not
>>> >> >> think it was so contestable.
>>> >> >> as this wiki entry sez, as is true of most major words describing
>>> >> >> ideas,
>>> >> >> 'There are many meanings to
>>> >> >> anarchism and not all of them are mutually exclusive"
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> In yesterday's Google Doodle article and in many summary
>>> >> >> presentations
>>> >> >> of
>>> >> >> Ms Jacobs' notions,
>>> >> >> the phrase 'street ballet" from her (or about her vision, don't
>>> >> >> know)
>>> >> >> is
>>> >> >> used as the positive vision she
>>> >> >> argued for deeply re the ineradicable human quality she believed
>>> >> >> necessary
>>> >> >> for right city life.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Knowing her work far less than Morris, that phrase and concept came
>>> >> >> to
>>> >> >> remind me later of, among other things,
>>> >> >> the anarchist's dance scene in Lot 49, under the bridge, everyone
>>> >> >> not
>>> >> >> bumping, a self-organizing dance/ballet
>>> >> >> that is part of TRP's vision, his hopeful vision. Then there is the
>>> >> >> anarchy theme in Against the Day.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> When I would walk NY streets, including the Village or visit
>>> >> >> Washington
>>> >> >> Square or Union Square parks and see
>>> >> >> 1) chess hustlers playing 2) skateboarders 3) walkers 4) runners 5)
>>> >> >> simple
>>> >> >> stretchers and exercisers 6) sunbathers
>>> >> >> sunning 6) couples holding hands 7) couples canoodling 8) little
>>> >> >> picnics
>>> >> >> 9) readers sitting 10) kids playing marbles
>>> >> >> and more ....I would lightly marvel at how it all happened on its
>>> >> >> own,
>>> >> >> self-organized, little or no bumping, so to say,  later coming to
>>> >> >> see
>>> >> >> it under the label of a kind of social anarchy good.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> My attempt yesterday to link Jacobs 'street ballet' to a Pynchon's
>>> >> >> notion
>>> >> >> of anarchy was just a speculative attempt
>>> >> >> to point out that he lived in the Village when Jane was an activist
>>> >> >> with
>>> >> >> her 'radical' notions; he was around when her
>>> >> >> first book was published......I have asked myself and haven't found
>>> >> >> it
>>> >> >> in
>>> >> >> the scholars of TRP I've read where TRP's notions
>>> >> >> re anarchism might have come from....theorists like Kropotkin and
>>> >> >> Herzen---we know he went to see Stoppard's play
>>> >> >> on all these Russians decades later so there is them as a possible
>>> >> >> influence but I have also wondered about
>>> >> >> such as New Yorkers Goodman and Jacobs....
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 7:48 AM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com>
>>> >> >> wrote:
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Oh! I finally got the joke!
>>> >> >>> Wherein the P-list debates the definition of anarchy.
>>> >> >>> I'm with Joseph.
>>> >> >>> But what we really need is a someone who can authorise which
>>> >> >>> definition is correct.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 9:02 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>> >> >>> wrote:
>>> >> >>> > To my thinking this is semantic. If by anarchic we mean mean an
>>> >> >>> > organizational tendency from less to no central authority or
>>> >> >>> > command, then
>>> >> >>> > Mark and other writers are using the term reasonably. If one
>>> >> >>> > means a
>>> >> >>> > political ideology with no executive decision makers and a
>>> >> >>> > committment to
>>> >> >>> > removing those in authority, then you win...
>>> >> >>> >> On May 4, 2016, at 5:13 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>> >> >>> >> wrote:
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> To champion grass-roots  social-based urbanism (championing
>>> >> >>> >> "urban
>>> >> >>> >> villages," essentially) as opposed to the modernist urban
>>> >> >>> >> renewal
>>> >> >>> >> ideals of
>>> >> >>> >> her time, doesn't make her in any way anarchistic.  She was
>>> >> >>> >> opposed
>>> >> >>> >> to
>>> >> >>> >> Modernism's ideals for urbanism.  It has now long been
>>> >> >>> >> recognized
>>> >> >>> >> that her
>>> >> >>> >> concepts of an organic people-oriented urbanism is much more
>>> >> >>> >> livable than
>>> >> >>> >> what she opposed.  Essentially she was pointing out that the
>>> >> >>> >> ghettos that
>>> >> >>> >> were being torn down were much more livable that the Pruitt-Igoe
>>> >> >>> >> style
>>> >> >>> >> urbanism that was being proposed to replace it.  She was right.
>>> >> >>> >> Labeling
>>> >> >>> >> that stance as "anarchism" is silly and misses the main ideas
>>> >> >>> >> she
>>> >> >>> >> promoted.
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> This (Pruitt-Igoe) is what she opposed:
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/apr/22/pruitt-igoe-high-rise-urban-america-history-cities
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> And the earlier city which surrounds the project (which was not
>>> >> >>> >> the
>>> >> >>> >> product of anarchy in any meaningful sense - except as opposed
>>> >> >>> >> to
>>> >> >>> >> Pruitt-Igoe)  in the photo is what she championed.
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> David Morris
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 3:48 PM, Mark Kohut
>>> >> >>> >> <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>> >> >>> >> wrote:
>>> >> >>> >> David,
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> There is a deep strain of human-sized, freedom-embracing,
>>> >> >>> >> non-top-down, self-organizing activities which
>>> >> >>> >> have been written about even here as 'anarchism'. See the
>>> >> >>> >> anarchist
>>> >> >>> >> dance in Lot 49.
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> Jacob's vision of city life has been seen under these concepts
>>> >> >>> >> by
>>> >> >>> >> many
>>> >> >>> >> for a long time: Here is the estimable
>>> >> >>> >> Richard Sennet for one: As Jane Jacobs points out, high
>>> >> >>> >> concentration
>>> >> >>> >> of dwelling units per acre and high land coverage are essential
>>> >> >>> >> to
>>> >> >>> >> the ...
>>> >> >>> >> 1969), and the appreciative review by Richard Sennett, “The
>>> >> >>> >> Anarchism of
>>> >> >>> >> Jane Jacobs,” New York Review of Books ...
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> There are scores more which I am not hunting down. it is her
>>> >> >>> >> vision
>>> >> >>> >> of
>>> >> >>> >> urban living, and parts of mumford's which might relate
>>> >> >>> >> them to Pynchon and are what I was referring to.
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 4:12 PM, David Morris
>>> >> >>> >> <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>> >> >>> >> wrote:
>>> >> >>> >> Jane Jacobs was in no way connected to anarchism, but, like
>>> >> >>> >> Mumford,
>>> >> >>> >> she was a proponent of urban living, as are most architects just
>>> >> >>> >> about
>>> >> >>> >> anywhere...
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> David Morris
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Mark Kohut
>>> >> >>> >> <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>> >> >>> >> wrote:
>>> >> >>> >> about urban theorist Jane Jacobs. Read up and see that
>>> >> >>> >> she shared many notions with Lewis Mumford, discussed a lot
>>> >> >>> >> here on the List. Her ideas of a vibrant diverse 'anarchic'
>>> >> >>> >> street
>>> >> >>> >> and storefront life might dovetail with many of P's meanings of
>>> >> >>> >> anarchic goodness.
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> Remember that she lived in Greenwich Village, near Barthelme
>>> >> >>> >> (therefore
>>> >> >>> >> Pynchon) I believe and Grace Paley and her husband
>>> >> >>> >> most of the time TRP was supposed to have
>>> >> >>> >> lived there. I think.
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >> Everything connects.
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> >> >>> >
>>> >> >>> > -
>>> >> >>> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>> >> >>> -
>>> >> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> -
>>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>> >
>>> >
>>> -
>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>
>>
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Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l